Let's talk about V8 swaps with a manual

[GeologistFelix]

So, there's gobs of nicely put-together information about V8 swaps with an auto, but the various ways to swap in a V8 with a manual are scattered all over the forums, and a lot of the information is 10-15 years old and refers to adapters that nobody makes any more.

As someone who might like to do a V8 swap, and wouldn't trade a manual for an auto in a million years, I thought I'd pick everyone's brains and try to suss out the current state of things.

One obvious complicating factor is how many different ways there are to do it...

1. Swap out everything from the engine to the wheel hubs. This makes sense if you want full-width (or really expensive custom) axles, don't mind doing a lot of welding and fabbing, etc. The big plus of this way of doing things seems to be that you can put whatever engine fits under the hood in -- Chevy, Ford, Dodge (ew), Lexus/Toyota.

2. Swap out 'just' the engine/trans/t-case. Still a fair amount of fab work and/or driveline mods even if you do something weird about the passenger-drop rear axle. On the other hand, it opens almost as many drivetrain options as #1.

3. Swap out everything in front of the t-case. This means you have to adapt your donor transmission, which limits things a little further, but with ranger torque splitters, the AA split-case adapters, and some craziness with things like NP203 doublers (which there's a splitcase adapter for). Again, probably going to have to fab and weld a lot and/or need new driveshafts and/or have your distributor (if it's an SBC) jammed way into the firewall.

4. Swap out the engine, adapt to H42/H55/etc. cruiser transmission. For this option, I really have no idea how many different ways there are to accomplish it. I know there's Mark's Adapter, which is expensive, but means no driveline mods, and there are a few cheaper adapters that AA claims are for FJ40 applications only, but maybe that just means some extra welding for a 60? What else is out there if you want to keep the Toyota transmission?




So, with that in mind, let's say somebody like me wants to swap in a V8 and have some sort of a manual behind it. Let's say 95% of any fab/welding work is going to mean paying someone to do it for me, but all the 'regular' wrenching, drilling/tapping of holes, etc. is in my wheelhouse. Electrical stuff is also not an issue for me. Let's also say that I'm mostly interested in having more power for mountain passes on the highway and the can of worms that comes with a desmogged, carbureted 2F (cold starts, trouble at altitude, etc.), and that I'd like a setup that wouldn't be impossible to make smog-legal (in some form), since California, Arizona, and Colorado are the places I'm most likely to end up for grad school in a couple of years.

So, with that in mind, here are my thoughts on some different setups:

A.) TBI 350 from a half-ton truck or van, in front of Mark's Adapter, with the option to swap in extra emissions junk and/or a manual-specific ECU if I end up going to Cali. Also means I can keep using my H42, but with the option to swap in an H55 if and when I have the money (and can find one). I'd pretty much only have to pay somebody to weld in the motor mounts, right? The rest would be a matter of wiring and wrenching and sourcing parts, plus renting an engine hoist and transmission jack?

B.) TBI 350 like the last setup, but in front of an NV4500 or SM465, and then adapt that to the split case. AA makes an adapter, but there's also the option of a ranger torque splitter or an np203 doubler (and its own split case adapter) to get from the transmission to the split case. Is it possible to get away without driveline mods (or having the dissy jammed into the firewall) with this type of setup? Or is that a wild goose chase that's going to be harder/worse/more expensive that Mark's Adapter?

C.) 5.7 or 4.8 Vortec (since the beloved 5.3 can't go to Cali in front of a manual and the 6.0 was only in the wrong weight class...and is expensive) and either of the above trans/t-case configurations. A bit easier to find these engines locally, but more wiring and (if I want to take the truck to Cali), much harder to get the factory emissions stuff configured properly.

D.) Something else entirely?



If I did option A, what's the part list going to be like? Here's what I know:
1. Complete engine, all of its accessories, wiring harness, and ECU
2. Mark's Adapter kit
3. Custom exhaust work (more 'service' than 'part' but whatever) from the headers/exhaust manifolds back
4. Electric fuel pump (this can be a low-pressure, in-line one for the TBI 350, right? Or do I need to upgrade my fuel lines for high pressure?)
5. Some kind of provision for a speed sensor for the ECU, since I'd only have the mechanical speedo output from my t-case, right?
6. Coolant system mods? I don't really know much about what this entails since people don't usually post detailed pictures of the hose routings for a TBI swap.
7. Tons of small odds and ends that I couldn't possibly think of until I've got the engine bolted in and I'm swearing up a storm.


Would option B be the same, plus new crossmember(s), some clutch-related plumbing work, and making everything fit in the transmission tunnel, via sledge-massage, cutting, and welding?

So, I guess, let's talk about what works for those four 'routes' to a V8/Manual, and what people have to say about my specific prospective swap?

 

[bkfj40]

What swaps have you driven?

What is your budget?

There is a huge difference between an sm465 and an h55 transmission.


Have you though about a toyota v8?
Toyota diesel?
Which shop would you take it to?

 

[Zack1978]

My dream truck (I think...never having driven a V8 60) would be a 5.3 GM V8 with a Toyota H55. Is a swap like that desirable?

 

[gregnash]

Plenty of info out there. Main thing to remember is that while those three states are Emissions states they may all be different. Plan foe the strictest and go from there.

From my research (see the V8 theorycraft thread) there is no "easy" swap as it all depends on the competency of the swapper, budget and willingness to adapt for changes where needed.

 

[MANUCHAO]

(since the beloved 5.3 can't go to Cali in front of a manual and the 6.0 was only in the wrong weight class...and is expensive)

The SSR (2005-2006) was offered in CA with a 6.0 & manual transmission...
Meaning it can be done legally here in CA.

With that said you better know your stuff (do your diligent work/search) as some of the REFS can be real *bleeps*...

EDIT: I have seen 5.3 and 6.0 with manual trannys..... while some get shot down others pass without issue....

 

[White Stripe]

I stopped by colorado Toyota specialists and they were doing one of their v8 swaps on a really clean 60. I guess the 2f was locked up. So it's getting a 350tbi with vortec heads, nv4500, Toyota split case. It will be emissions compliant for the strict denver emissions. The owner used to do v8 swaps all the time, but found he makes better money typically just doing repairs and maintenance usually on the old 2f motors and other normal Toyota's over custom work. He doesn't like to answer a lot of questions so he's not on the forums, and really isn't into the internet, so he's not well known compared to shops that are more Internet savvy. But here's a few pics I snapped. I would pretty much go into a v8 swap with intent to modify driveshafts. Wiring up a tbi motor isn't bad. I would think about getting the tbi ecm upgraded to a ebl ecm. Costs about 400 bucks, but makes the ecm flashable compared to the old chips that have to be removed. Trans choice is based on preference and budget. Same with tcase. The split case works great and u can get 4:1 gears from advanced adapters for it for around 900 bucks.

 

[gregnash]

Its always funny to me to see a V8 swap (whatever flavor) and how it seems to take up so much less room than the "smaller" 2F?!

Also, the other thing you will find is that unless you are going with a new crate motor for your swap or you are pulling yourself then you will likely end up paying just as much for a TBI engine as you will for an "older" Gen III LS.
For instance, looking at the local salvage yard you can get a 1990 TBI 350 that is a Grade A (don't as me about the rating system as it is something that goes along the lines of "less than 60k on the engine or less than 200k on the engine with an estimated average of less than or equal to 15k miles per year or...." by that time I stopped) for about $950. You can also get a 2001 Gen III Vortec 5.3 with the same grading (Grade A) for about $950 to about $1300. These are supposed to come with all accessories, connections, etc. and guaranteed to run.

Use the website Car-Part.com to get some general ideas of costs for mileage and the engines you want. I have seen plenty of 5.3L (early Gen III) going for between $600 (had like 250k+ on it) to $2k (had like 60k on it)

So you will have to make the decision, do you pull yourself, do a salvage yard, do a turnkey (ala BD Turnkey or Pacific Fab or the like) or do you do a crate motor?

 

[GeologistFelix]

Thanks for all the replies!

So, there were a few questions. I'll try to just answer them in general rather than individually...

- My rig is a bit scratched and bruised from the trail. It's got a million minor cosmetic issues that would cost twice as much as a cleaner 60 to fix. I don't care about keeping it Toyota, I don't care about things being 'perfect.' I just want it to be more hill and highway friendly, actually be able to pass jackasses driving 10 under on two-lane highways, run consistently at highway speeds, and be easier to find parts for if and when some under-hood accessory takes a dump in the middle of a 2000-mile trip.
- My budget is 'as cheap as possible,' so...sub $5k, and then the cheaper the better? So, 99% of the non-welding/fab work done by me for free, and most of the budget is for (CL/junkyard) parts.
- Speaking of CL parts, I think getting a running (but potentially wrecked?) half-ton truck/van/SUV with the engine I want is probably where I'll start. Plenty of rigs with a TBI 350 for >$1200, and I figure I can get a few hundred parting them out once I have everything I need.
- I'm trying to avoid 'taking it to a shop,' and any fab/welding would probably be through a guy I know locally.
- My 60 is the only cruiser I've ever had the opportunity to drive (or even ride in), so I don't really have much basis for comparison.
- I have a really hard time justifying the extra complexity of sensors, wiring, etc. for a Vortec or other MPFI V8 when compared to a TBI 350, especially since the newer engines are also going to require other, expensive bits the TBI won't, like a high-pressure fuel system etc.
- I realize the SM465 and NV4500 are very different transmissions; it's just a question of what I can find in good shape for cheap. If someone has, say, a 350 and 465 together in good shape for $800 on CL, that's going to be a way more enticing direction to go with the swap than a $500 engine and $1000 NV4500. If I find a cheap NV4500 that isn't beaten to hell, I'd obviously go for that.
- Toyota V8s immediately fail the bang-for-the-buck test, for my needs, when I look at the options to put one in front of a manual. Plus, all the same problems of needless complexity for wiring that a Vortec has.
- The 'definitely an upgrade over a 2F' Toyota diesels are just too expensive, and I've stopped seeing the nicely-priced 3B/H55 setups from rusted rigs selling from Canada. If I saw a $1500 rusted out BJ60 with the H55, I might think about going that route and putting in a cheap DIY turbo setup with a 13B-T manifold etc.
- I really, really don't *need* 300 horsepower or 400 ft/lbs of torque. I'd be happy with the stock TBI numbers, really and truly. 70 extra horsepower and 80 extra foot-pounds (assuming my old 2F is operating even close to spec), no more carb (and desmog) related temperature/altitude/slope concerns, and less weight in the front end would all be

I guess I should have started out by asking "What are the different ways to adapt a TBI 350 into a 60 with a manual, keep it potentially smog-legal, and which of those would work well if I want to avoid fab work?"

So, here's what's making sense to me, right now:
- Mark's Adapter to save a ton of time and fine-tuning of the engine position that I'd probably screw up the first time around
- 350 and all its accessories, wiring harness, sensors, etc. from a late 80s to 1995 donor rig (which is also the right weight class to be okay in California)
- Engine mounts and exhaust work to be done by local shop(s)
- Do all the wiring and wrenching myself because my time is worth a lot less to me than what even the cheapest shop would charge.

Is this crazy? Are there any big downsides to putting it together this way?

 

[gregnash]

Well it all depends on what and where you are willing to make compromises. I thinking letting your budget completely dictate your build at such a low number is a recipe for disaster but that is my personal feeling.

- Spend the extra money and get a good, known running TBI engine from a salvage yard that has everything attached.
- Go with the Ranger Overdrive torque splitter between your H42 and the TBI 350 to allow for some better highway speeds and later down the road update to an h55
- Send the ECM/PCM out to be upgraded to the EBL PROM (or whatever it is) so that you can flash the chip at will instead of having to remove and replace the chips on the computer
- Have the TBI sent out and have the injectors flow matched and everything gone over so you are running at optimal
- Rest of it is going to be small odds and ends here and there that you have to figure out as you go.

The main thing to remember is that you are putting in an engine that is only a few years newer that what you are currently running vs. spending some extra money upfront to get something that will produce better fuel economy and power numbers from the get go. But I completely understand your position.

If you want to really go cheap plan for a Half Off day at your local Pick N Pull, go scout some engines prior to the dates and have your engine picked out and ready to be pulled prior to you going so. Then hit it up on the half off day. The problem with this method is that you are getting and engine you know very little about with only the HOPE that it is good.

 

[White Stripe]

If u buy a tbi chevy truck with nv4500 already in it u could drive it around before u take it apart. Should find one for 3k ish. Leave room in budget for cooling system mods, exhaust and headers, refreshing the used motor and transmission. New clutch, retrofitting air conditioning. Etc. Sometimes less is more. So don't go too cheap or you'll be doing things twice. U could part out the rest of the truck but probably won't make much.

 

[GeologistFelix]

If u buy a tbi chevy truck with nv4500 already in it u could drive it around before u take it apart. Should find one for 3k ish. Leave room in budget for cooling system mods, exhaust and headers, refreshing the used motor and transmission. New clutch, retrofitting air conditioning. Etc. Sometimes less is more. So don't go too cheap or you'll be doing things twice. U could part out the rest of the truck but probably won't make much.

That makes a lot of sense. The question is how I'm going to find a half-ton with an NV4500 in it, since a 3/4 or one-ton won't work in California (although that might be as 'simple' a solution as swapping out the block and ECU if I move there?). They don't come up often around here.

 

[White Stripe]

That makes a lot of sense. The question is how I'm going to find a half-ton with an NV4500 in it, since a 3/4 or one-ton won't work in California (although that might be as 'simple' a solution as swapping out the block and ECU if I move there?). They don't come up often around here.

Hmm. What's your axle gearing and tire size? U could buy a 1/2 ton withe a tbi 350 and then just save up for a nv4500 or get a sm465 and just keep 3.70 gears in the axles. A 350 1/2 ton generic truck should only cost around 2k

 

[gregnash]

Well the other thing you may want to look into is how the registration of said vehicle goes. If you are doing the swap IN CALIFORNIA then yes you would have to abide by their rules. However, if the swap is completed and registered outside of CA and you are transferring the registration I do not believe they can tell you NO. But you would have to do some reading on the CARB website.

 

[MANUCHAO]

.If in California later on, make sure that whatever configuration you go with was available for sale in this state. ..

I remember talking to one of the REFS a while back, and him saying that the 4.8 & 6.0 came with manual tranny, but can't remember the years. ..

 

[erse]

I really, really don't *need* 300 horsepower or 400 ft/lbs of torque. I'd be happy with the stock TBI numbers, really and truly. 70 extra horsepower and 80 extra foot-pounds (assuming my old 2F is operating even close to spec), no more carb (and desmog) related temperature/altitude/slope concerns, and less weight in the front end would all be

I don't have much practical advice to offer but I wanted to say I think you are on point with this, though I am biased. I picked up a 60 with a 350 TBI and an h55. The factors you mention in the above quote are exactly right, what a novelty being able to pass on the highway and getting rid of a carb set up is a blessing as far as I am concerned. Good luck with your quest for the right set up for your rig

 

[gregnash]

If I were in your shoes with your budget here is the way I would probably approach..
- Grab a buddy and do a salvage yard pull myself (using above mentioned method of looking for half off weekends).
- Purchase engine stand and teardown to block (removing intake, heads, waterpump, time chain cover and oilpan)
- replace waterpump, timing chain, t-stat, and all relevant gaskets
- take heads and have them magnafluxed/checked (if cracked then upgrade to Vortec heads) only machine if necessary
- Send ECM out to be reprogrammed and have the EBL chip installed instead of swappable chip
- Send Injectors out to be reworked and flow matched
- Rebuild throttle body myself
- Find a pair of used Rams Horn or Corvette C5 exhaust manifolds to fit engine bay used on eBay or through salvage yard
- Remove stock radiator and have it cored and rodded to ensure it is in good shape
- Mate everything to existing drivetrain to save time/money (with intent to upgrade to the H55 in a couple years.... $100/mo x 30 months)
- Upgrade gauge cluster as needed to ensure that gauges work with new engine

Drive like I stole it!

 

[HemiAlex]

A 5.3 with the h42/h55 would make a ton of sense.

I'd work to maintain the mechanical fan also.

 

[gregnash]

A 5.3 with the h42/h55 would make a ton of sense.

I'd work to maintain the mechanical fan also.

Definitely agree with keeping the mechanical fan, there is a great SUMMIT fan shroud kit that allows you to make a custom shroud to fit whatever.

Problem is that the 5.3 adds an additional level of complexity if you get the wrong year. The early models were drive by cable whereas the later models (think anything after 2003 for a GenIII) is drive by wire. If you get the DBW then you have to completely modify the pedal bucket and pedal to get it to work.

But remember, there is a possibility he may be moving to CA so depending on how the regulations are he may not be able to have the 5.3L behind a manual transmission (statute states it has to be an OFFERED SETUP in a stock vehicle, so his options are 4.8L or 6.0L behind the NV4500/MT)

Conversely, if he is not planning on doing any towing or anything like that he may be able to get away with the 4.8L and late do some hop-ups to it if he needs the extra power. I know there was one or two guys that recently did the 4.8L in their 60 (think @AggiePE did) and said that it had more then enough power for normal daily stuff.

 

[AggiePE]

I used a 2005 LQ4 (6.0 liter from a Silverado 2500) put the factory GM NV4500 behind it with the Toyota split case. Almost 400 hp is waayyy more than enough to move the 60 quickly.

 

[AggiePE]

I used a 2005 LQ4 (6.0 liter from a Silverado 2500) put the factory GM NV4500 behind it with the Toyota split case. Almost 400 hp is waayyy more than enough to move the 60 quickly.

Edit*
For clarity, I wasn't looking for a 6.0 liter, I just happen to find this one with the NV4500 already behind it. The harness was hacked to be stand alone. I re-did the harness so it was neat and clean. The deal I got on the setup was worth the larger displacement.