Is there a 2" or 3" rear progressive or dual rate spring that actually works?

[GW Nugget]

I don't know about others, but I'm tired of having a stinkbug while DDing around then to sit low as soon as the kids & gear go in the back. I want to stay at the 2.5" level. My current set up is a Lx450 with 315s & light armor, inside spare tire nothing hanging out the back. It has a OME 851+25mm/860 combo & it gave me originally 2" in front & 3.5 in the back, had to add the 25mm front spring spacer. So now it sits .5" normal empty. I would like to lower my lift by 1" BUT the rear will stink even worse if I do.
I like doing medium rock trails rather than expedition style wheelin.

I like the idea of a progressive rate spring & the taller 20" free height of the TJM, but after a lot of reading it appears that its a 50/50 love hate & the ones that like them really don't wheel them. The one's that where heavy & wheel didn't like them most said the don'thold up to the added weight. I did the research on OME single rate springs & found they just get taller with the same rate. For me I don't want to go with a high lift to get level on trail & be super stink 90% of the time. These 80 series coils are so sensitive to weight...

My bottom line question is... is there a 2.5" spring out there that can handle a wider range of weight, without such a deflection in height?

 

[Timpanogos Slim]

My guess is no. That is likely beyond the physics available in variable rate springs.

However, you can get helper air bags. Firestone and Airlift both make bags that install inside the spring. If you need to carry more weight, put more pressure in the bag. The kit has a schraeder valve just like a tire. You can route the air lines to put that behind the filler door or wherever you want to put it.

 

[den]

you could try and call king springs in australia, they have a big range..https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=king+springs

 

[solidfrontaxle]

#1 Stink bug is awesome
#2 What you have sounds awesome
#3 Call Cruiser Outfitters. They have piles of data on spring rate, lift height, etc. They can get you dialed in if what you want is something that exists.

 

[SUMMIT CRUISERS Jr]

I have the airlift kit and love it. I am running 50mm Ironman performance series coils. With the addition of the rtt, bike rack and bikes, rear swingout, rear storage box and air tank, loaded yeti cooler, and other miscellaneous gear it would stink bug at least and inch.

With the airlift, I just put a jack under the back a bit, throw about 30 psi on both sides, then take the jack out and then let out 5-15 psi depending on how loaded I am. Install took less than 2 hours and was only like $80 vs buying new coils for $200ish and riding harsh when unloaded.

I have about 10,000 miles on mine now with no issues.

 

[skhochay]

Hello all, I don't know if starting a new thread is the right thing, but I'm tired of having a stinkbug while DDing around then to sit low as soon as the kids & gear go in the back it squats down. I want to stay at the 2.5" level. My current set up is a Lx450 with 315s & light armor, inside spare tire nothing hanging out the back. It has a OME 851+25mm/860 combo & it gave me originally 2" in front & 3.5 in the back, had to add the front spring spacer in front. So now it sits .5" normal empty. I would like to lower my lift by 1" BUT the rear will stink even worse if I do.
I like doing medium rock trails rather than expedition style wheelin.

I like the idea of a progressive rate spring & the 20" free height of the TJM, but after a lot of reading it appears that its a 50/50 love hate & the ones that like them really don't wheel them. The one's that where heavy & wheel didn't like them. I did the research on OME single rate springs & found they just get taller with the same rate. For me I don't want to go with a high lift to get level on trail & be super stink 90% of the time. These 80 series coils are so sensitive to weight...

My bottom line question is... is there a 2.5" spring out there that can handle a wider range of weight, without such a deflection in height?

you have my configuration 2" front 2"+ 1" space rear 315 tires - I do have TJM progressive springs - love them I send you pictures, do not neglect if you have caster bushing front adjustment you must have double yoke cardan shaft, sheers.

 

[GW Nugget]

I don't know about others, but I'm tired of having a stinkbug while DDing around then to sit low as soon as the kids & gear go in the back. I want to stay at the 2" to 2.5" level. My current set up is a Lx450 with 315s & light armor, inside spare tire nothing hanging out the back. It has a OME 851+25mm/860 combo & it gave me originally 2" in front & 3.5" in the back, I had to add the 25mm front spring spacer. So now it sits at 1" or more empty in rear. I would like to go lower at all 4 corners if I could.

I like the idea of a dual rate spring & the taller free height of the TJM, but after a lot of reading it appears that its a 50/50 love hate. The people that like them don't wheel them. The rigs that where heavy & wheel, the people said the don't hold up to the added weight.
I did the research on OME single rate springs & found they sit taller as they increase the rate in the rear springs. For me I don't want to go with a high lift to get a stronger spring to stay level on trail & be super stink 90% of the time.

My bottom line question is: Is there a 2.5" spring out there that can handle a wider range of weight, without such a deflection in height?

That was my question from months ago & since then I found out more info on this subject. I realized there is a couple springs that might fit my needs. The springs that I'm referring to are the OME 861/862 combo.
The info that I'm going to quote from is the OME specs.
http://www.arbusa.com/Uploads/PDF/onlineManualsGuides/OME_Guide_current.pdf

The 861/862 combo is the OME stock replacement springs for the 80 series.

The front 861 dual rate 170/250 has a factory spec 170 lb. rate on top & a stronger 250 lbs. rate than the medium 851 or the heavy 850 spring rate of 220 lbs. on the bottom. Yes these are stronger than OME heavy & J springs.

The rear 862 dual rate 170/260
They also have a factory ride rate of 170lbs. on top plus a heavy spring rate of 260lbs. on bottom that is stronger than a heavy 863 spring rate of 250lbs. Hmm.

Is the 861/862 the hidden jewel of OME?

These by them self will add .75" to 1" of lift, but here is the twist. If you add a 30mm spacer on top it can be a true 50mm or 2" lift. These will also have a free height almost as tall as the J spring. This means the longer L shock can be used with this set up. Hmm... stock replacement springs with L shocks. Low & Long. Here are the specs:
Front
850 = 19.48"/19.88"
861+30mm = 20"/20.47"
850J = 20.27"/20.67"
Rear
863 = 18.89"/19.23"
862+30mm = 19.23"/19.68"
863J = 19.88"/20.27"
TJM Rear 50mm progressive
770RR80C 19.7"/20.27"

I have found & questioned several people here on mud that have this set up & wrote they where really happy with the set up.

Weekend Transformation, OME 861/862
Center hub to bottom fender is 22.25"
My set up is 22.5"

Above is a 2" option, below is a 3" dual rate option from Australia. Darren M. with@AutoCraft Aus has some springs that are called Slinky Long Travel. I have been told they are coming to the US market soon. Thesee springs have been in production since 2005.

Slinky front 160/260 lbs. 24"
Slinky rear 160/270 lbs. 22"
They do have some other heavy duty springs.

Here is a snip from Darren:
Slinky
Free height is 24" front 22" rear.
Our slinky coils for front are 260 lb [SNOWY has these]
rim to fender is 800-825mm, and because the last 2 5/8 thick coils are completely dead, it allows us to trim heights to suit by removing a coil if we need to.

Our rears are 270lb intermediate 810-830mm rim to fender and 320 lb HD 810-830mm rim to fender.

All our slinky coils are 160 lb on the tapered wire section.

We normally try and work to a 30mm [1 1/4"] rake when vehicle accessory fitted but unloaded as we see it to install.

Our intermediate coils drop aprox 12mm [1/2"] per 100kg (220 lbs.) of load.

Our HD drop aprox 8mm per 100 kg (220 lbs.)of load.

How we measure those, rim to fender, for 80 we talk 16" rim, and add 12mm for 17s, 24mm for 18s, etc.

This makes it easier with deep dish wheels, than centre of hub, and removes tyre pressure variants.

Just because... this helped me.

 

[scottryana]

There are some really interesting ideas re springs but the OME 170/260 are borderline silly and I will explain shortly, probably on the bus on the way back to the hospital. But IMO they make very little sense.

 

[Shoredreamer]

The TJMs RR80C match up pretty close to the 862s now that you bring it up. Both are dual rate.

17.2mm diameter
Same as 862
The diff is in the number of winds
9.8 RR80C
9 862
Also the coil height
20" RR80C
18.3" 862

You could assume the extra .8 gives a little more lift over the 862s.
Should give you 22.5" center hub - fender unladen
At that ride height you'll have about 6.5" downtravel and close to 5" up with a 30mm bump spacer and Ls.

Does that sound correct?
You can try em out if you want to see how the ride is.

 

[LFD2037]

In the OME chart you posted it says OE not OME is 170/250. Typo or ???

 

[GW Nugget]

In the OME chart you posted it says OE not OME is 170/250. Typo or ???

Hello @LFD2037
I believe OE is original equipment.
Did you get your heater hoses fixed?

 

[LFD2037]

OE is original equipt. which means factory or OEM. So does that mean OME is telling you what the vehicles OE springs were or actually listing their variable spring rate for that spring & accidentally wrote OE instead of OME?

And yes I got it fixed!!!!!! Thanks!

 

[scottryana]

Ok please bare with me as this is going to sound wrong but I am pretty certain it is not.

When you have a dual rate spring the initial spring rate is much much less than either of the dual rates. The reason this happens is because the entirety of the coil supports the weight and compresses appropriately.

Imagine a spring with a 5lb/inch section and a 10lb/inch section. Now add 25lbs to this spring. You get 5" of deflection from the 5lbs/inch and 2.5" of deflection for the 10lbs/inch section for a total of 7.5" deflection with only 25lbs. 25lbs/7.5" is a spring rate of 3.33lbs/inch much less than the 5lbs/in and 10lbs/in of the dual rate.

This is exactly the same with the OME coil if you take 170/260 you get an actual spring rate of 102lbs/in. That is until you fully compress the 170 coils and then you only have the 260lbs coils. The 170 coils are compressed at ride height so you get no softer ride. Just a longer uncompressed length. Basically just to keep the cool seated.

 

[KliersLC]

My guess is no. That is likely beyond the physics available in variable rate springs.

However, you can get helper air bags. Firestone and Airlift both make bags that install inside the spring. If you need to carry more weight, put more pressure in the bag. The kit has a schraeder valve just like a tire. You can route the air lines to put that behind the filler door or wherever you want to put it.

I have airlift bags also. The only issue I have had is that airing them up adversely affects braking performance as the LSPV doesn't know you have extra weight when you lift the back end of the truck back up. The difference when towing a camper was so significant that I deflated the airbags so that I could reliably stop....YMMV

 

[GW Nugget]

OE is original equipt. which means factory or OEM. So does that mean OME is telling you what the vehicles OE springs were or actually listing their variable spring rate for that spring & accidentally wrote OE instead of OME?

Yes
OME & OEM getting confusing some times...
I just wrote in green on chart. Factory specs are on far right, but they read 160 then 170 which is a descrency, but don't focus on that.
The chart to me reads factory ride on top & heavy on bottom. What real world feel is up to a person to chime in & give his/ her opinion.

 

[GW Nugget]

Ok please bare with me as this is going to sound wrong but I am pretty certain it is not.

When you have a dual rate spring the initial spring rate is much much less than either of the dual rates. The reason this happens is because the entirety of the coil supports the weight and compresses appropriately.

Imagine a spring with a 5lb/inch section and a 10lb/inch section. Now add 25lbs to this spring. You get 5" of deflection from the 5lbs/inch and 2.5" of deflection for the 10lbs/inch section for a total of 7.5" deflection with only 25lbs. 25lbs/7.5" is a spring rate of 3.33lbs/inch much less than the 5lbs/in and 10lbs/in of the dual rate.

This is exactly the same with the OME coil if you take 170/260 you get an actual spring rate of 102lbs/in. That is until you fully compress the 170 coils and then you only have the 260lbs coils. The 170 coils are compressed at ride height so you get no softer ride. Just a longer uncompressed length. Basically just to keep the cool seated.

I get what you are saying, totally.
Have you had dual rate springs?
Most that have had them like them till they put to much weight on them. But wait OME has even a stonger one a 866 has a 240/300 lbs. dual rate rear that fits an 80. It's 18.3" tall which to short far a L shock. It's on the chart.

I just want you to know I'm just a newbie here but with passion to learn all I can. I'm not a expert at this. I'm just looking at the numbers.

Who else has put 30mm spacers on top of these stock replacement springs?

 

[scottryana]

I have had dual rate springs and I have had dual rate coil overs and it is a really weird concept to think when you stack a 250lb over a 350lb spring that you end up with a spring rate of 145lbs/in.

So more than likely you would see the section marked "soft rate" on the spring completely coil bound. SO you would be riding on the 260lbs rate. But as you flexed, when a normal spring would come out of the spring bucket the "soft rate" coils uncoil and retain the spring. It does not soften the initial ride and then firm up that would be a progressive spring.

I get what you are saying, totally.
Have you had dual rate springs?
Most that have had them like them till they put to much weight on them. But wait OME has even a stonger one a 866 has a 240/300 lbs. dual rate rear that fits an 80. It's 18.3" tall which to short far a L shock. It's on the chart.

I just want you to know I'm just a newbie here but with passion to learn all I can. I'm not a expert at this. I'm just looking at the numbers.

Who else has put 30mm spacers on top of these stock replacement springs?

 

[solidfrontaxle]

Again, I suggest you talk to Cruiser Outfitters if you haven't already. They've done their own testing on OME springs and know practical spring rates and ride heights, and can calculate for you exactly what you need to achieve this (if you want to go the OME route).

BTW, the 866 is a 100 series rear spring. I don't think it will fit on an 80, but don't quote me, double check me on that.

Oh and another solution is to get 864s (heavier of the two heavies) and embrace the stinkbug. My ride height never changes even when loaded because they are very very stiff, but I think the 80 looks fantastic with the bum sticking way up in the air like that. Whatever you do though, don't get the 868s. I considered them because I thought I carried a lot of weight, but I'm glad I didn't - the 864s are plenty, the 868s would be insanely stiff!

 

[concretejungle]

I have slee's progressive rear heavy springs and his 4 inch fronts. I can tell you that i have absolutely enjoyed these springs! I have loaded my rig up for 3 weeks worth of gear (RTT, full gas, extra gas, fridge, drawers, food, spare parts, ect...) and the truck rides like a cadillac. I have not noticed any stink bug with this setup. With no weight in it, it only appears to ride slightly higher in the rear than unloaded. If i were to guess i would say loaded vs. unloaded shows maybe a difference of 1 inch of squat in the rear.

 

[GW Nugget]

It sounds like a true progressive spring would be better than a dual rate spring like the Slee 4" but I'm looking for a shorter lift. A 2" to 3" lift would give close to a 4.5" of up travel which would give a good ratio for a 10" to 11" shock. But that is another subject.

Airbags are not a option, neither is a spring so stiff it won't move no matter what you put on it...

Thank you all for your input.
If any one wants to add any more personal seat time exspeience it would be appreciated.