Fuel System Chaulk Talk - Long Term Fuel Trim

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

basically S/c on your car/truck means you probably need to cut in half the recommended mileage replacements for sensors and the like as overall the system is being asked to work harder and do more A little PM never killed any one.
 
I've got a wedding to run to, I'll be back in a few hours. Looking forward to continuing the discussion.

- Craig
 
Christo,
Have you thought about taking a new manifold and having a second set of injector holes cut into the manifold (six of them and then using a second controller to control the second six injectors as opposed to using two further up the line in a dry manifold? Audi did this with great sucess in the eighties with their rally cars and also in the early ninties with their IMSA cars keep in mind these cars were 2.2l 5 cylinders with 700 and up horsepower and bullit proof reliability ie Toyota level reliability, no BS here either. Again please keep in mind that I have not toy'ed with any toyota motors @ all, realizing that basic theory is all the same each engine has it s own idosyncracies.

Colin
 
jerseyfzj80 welcome to the discussion, some good stuff you posted there.
 
Do you have any info on how the Totota Open Loop System works. We were thinking it does not use the learned Map like closed loop, but based on the sensors, goes to a hard coded map. Still uses a diff value than a non SC engine based on the sensor data, just not adjusted over time (learned).

What are your thoughts on that?
 
Whipp, Dan and at least one Turbo'd 80 have reported this WOT ping. I paid $80.00 for them on EBay and figured it was worth a try.

If it did help then that's a cheap fix considering these things are up there all the time, not always cleaned though.

I definitely agree, I think it sounds like a great experiment to try, especially considering the cost. I definitely don't know for sure how the ECU works, just what I've read about other ECUs. I'd love to have a chance to look at the software and maps used in the Toyota ECUs.
 
I've been reading alot lately and unfortunately what I've been able to put together is from bits and pieces sprinkled throughout many posts.

One very interesting one pointed out that on his turbo car the boost suddenly went wild. His passenger pressed some button on the dash that he shouldn't have. This guy imediately figured his engine was toast. Not at all, the Toyota programming properly saw that there was a need to engage the fuel cut circuit and no damage was done.

From what I gather the program within the ECU is the same program in all of them. Toyota called it "TCC" and it's based on a Bosch program from the 80s. The tuning for that program to fit a particular vehicle is done through the sensors and the map within the ECU.

Part of Dan's problem is that not only is the air sensor tuned for a specific size injector it is also tuned to be more accurate at a certain expected air flow. Now that he has SC'd his truck the flapper style sensor is operating at it's upper limits and giving him some problems with metering the fuel properly. At least that is my take on it.
 
Catsup...

Colin: Welcome, glad you stepped up and in... I sure hope that's not the PES supercharger kit of which you speak, as I have one of those 2.8 30v SC's in my shop now with fuel issues. I'm convinced it's overrated in terms of actual HP based on MAF reading (as in a lot less than claimed), so the big injectors are drowning it. PES has sent me 3 chipsets, none of them have addressed the problem (-15% LTFT CEL)

Regarding second injectors, Audi wasn't allowed to run a second set of injectors in WRC or Trans Am. What you may be thinking of is the S1 EVO II Sport Quattro that had injectors in the exhaust manifold for antilag. That said, dual injectors can work, but at 8psi boost on an 80, I doubt it's necessary.

I completely agree that any thing less than 6 'extra injectors' are not going to work well, since rarely does upstream injected fuel enter a dry manifold runner equally. I suspect since Christo has had decent luck on the dyno without a CEL, I' ventur that Mr. T doesn't yet have crossbank fuel capability or sequential exhaust pulse capability in their application of OBDII. That said Christo, my concerns regarding those extra injectors would be that you are dialing in false fuel. I'd want all injectors to be adding xx%, because 2 is not adding even fuel to the manifold runners. This means that you are *registering* proper fuel ratio at the tailpipe or at the 02, yet you are most likely lean on some cylinders and rich on others, but the sum measurement looks ok. It's most likely not.

LT: You are getting the hang of this a bit. Yes, slightly larger injectors can indeed shift the 0 +/- 15% window up and down the scale. However, IMO/E 6% larger fuel injector on a stock fuel pressure regulator probably means that the money would be better spent on the BEGI FPR before swapping injectors. I'll also point out that the flapper style AFM can be tweeked, btdt on my 4Runner. You can lean or richen the AFM. You can also do this with many MAF's, haven't looked on the 80/100 to see if there is an adjustment for it. Since that's really opening pandoras box on a lot of fronts and variables, I will only say it can be done, and it's illegal to do so. Google search, and ALWAYS index your starting point!

Regarding the 15% LTFT window, that's in the FSM for 96> and it's in my 93 for CA equipped (but I believe dan says there was no such animal). Most OBDII systems use this, mostly because of the catalyst. Below .86 lambda, you drown the CAT, and it clogs the exhaust when it comes back on line.

Scenario trigger? Vacuum leak is the most common, but slow or bad O2's can do it as well. A slow O2 will cause a longer rich condition, which it then gets picked up by the rear O2's as too much fuel trim compensation -15% fuel trim required to 'fix' the front O2 problem. I've actually demonstrated this to customers. Reset LTFT to 0, rev car, watch STFT sticking (slow), watch LTFT slowly sink from 0>-15, then CEL

I think you guys really want to jump into WOT full boost. For those that want to move along faster than LTFT, you can start to look and datalog measuring block values of injector duration at WOT. That will give you a good idea what the FTU is programmed to do. Normally, WOT tables are fixed injector DC, with only flag inputs (WOT switch activated, temp sender within parameter, no knock sensor input present, the only real question is MAF - but I doubt it)

Whipp and Jersey mentioned that LTFT is monitored during WOT. In my understanding of it's input to OBDII systems, it's probably better said that WOT activity is a part of LTFT calculation. Basically you want .86lambda as maximum (hmm - 14% away from 1.00 lamda:idea: ) so that you don't drown the catalyst, and send it downstream, btdt.

Again, on a boosted truck (SC or Turbo), you usually want the fueling behavior to be stock under vacuum. That's probably more easily attained by fuel pressure regulator than by injectors. And here is where a larger pump could increase the complexity of your variables.

ST
 
Last edited:
I brought up the 6% larger injectors for the exact purpose of dealing with Dan's WOT issue. If it works that out for him, in my opinion it's not only cheaper but a better solution than a rising rate reg.

As far as my build up, right now I don't like either of the two choices presented, piggy back or Rising rate fuel reg.
 
ST,
Good luck on the chipsets you may actual need to get that thing on a chassis dyno with an innovate motorsports LM1 tuner plugged in and log some data on it and then send the stuff out from there. I don't know if todd @ EVO in the southwest is still dealing with the PES stuf but if he is you may want to try to get with him and then get thru to Garrett @ GIAC as I believe that PES can take a somewhat arrogant approach to deling with the problems that exist with the g2-g3 s/c systems. todds web is www.evoms.com Yes it was PES and we had some fun but I left after a few battles over the way things were handled and lets leave it @ that. Unless you make it out Jersey for your beer! On second injector idea I bet that www.034motorsports.com could potentially come up with a solution to the scenario these guys do miracles with old bosch CIS injected German cars and can probably work the Toyota stuff or come up with a real unobtrusive piggy back system.
Is the code every one is coming up with ltft system to lean or ltft system to rich?
Have the culprit cars had all the possible component that make up this aspect of OBDII changed (injectors, MAF, O2's) to new good parts or are we all just speculating here?
In theory if all components are working well and properly the ECU should give a rat's A$$ about the amount of air going thru the engine just that that it is @ the magical 14.7 ratio, so somewhere in the line up if you have ltft system to lean there has got to be component starting to fail somewhere right.....
Scott PM me please with more info on the PES G2 car I MIGHT (I stress Might) be able to help.

C
 
OK you fuel-heads, riddle me this......

Pronounced Knock, above ~4,000 rpm at WOT without the addition of 50/50 water/methanol at a rate of 14GPH (injection takes place pre-throttle body).

Also a moderate knock at 2,200-2,800 rpm at ~75% throttle, with a smaller blower pulley, not able to inject with my current setup to see the effect.
 
It's not "spark knock"......

My timing is stock and I run the highest octane gas I can buy. I believe it is lean.
 
The knock sensors/computer can not pull the lead out fast enough to compensate in that scenario. Since the addition of the methanol cures all, it leads me to belive the lean condition.

It makes sence since the engine is producing about 1/3 more power on what ammounts to the same ammount of fuel it would burn in stock form. 1/3 more power should require more fuel, no?
 
It makes sence since the engine is producing about 1/3 more power on what ammounts to the same ammount of fuel it would burn in stock form. 1/3 more power should require more fuel, no?


Yes Dan you are correct. I've read some very interesting stuff lately and was waiting for you to finish with inventory so we might chat about it.

One article pointed to the flapper style air meter as having a high rate of degrade in accuracy and was one of the driving forces in going with a hot wire MAF.

What is the plug configuration on your air meter? Is it a 5 wire by chance?
 
Whipp and Jersey mentioned that LTFT is monitored during WOT. In my understanding of it's input to OBDII systems, it's probably better said that WOT activity is a part of LTFT calculation.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. I thought WOT is open loop and therefore can't be used to calculate LTFT. Am I missing something?
 
Back
Top Bottom