Fuel System Chaulk Talk - Long Term Fuel Trim

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Injectors are referred to as disc type or pintle type. Mr. T uses disc type, which allows a higher duty cycle before going semistatic or static (above ~80% DC, the injector open time exceeds the ability of the spring to return the injector to a closed state). A pintle type (bosch are mostly pintles) has a max injector DC between 5-10% lower than a disc type.


What I've read is that they are referred to as Saturated/hi or peak and hold/low. The difference in the injector is their impedance across the coil. The saturated ones have a resistance above 10ohm and the peak and hold are around 3 ohm. They also differ in how they are activated.

The saturated injectors have one leg attached to ground and the other attached to a switched 12v supply. The 12v is triggered and the injector sprays. The advantage is that they run cooler and provide longer life.

In peak and hold, one leg is attached to ground and the other is triggered to 12v. However the trigger is not constantly attached to 12v. It has a wave form where it spikes to 12v then drops off. This spike generates a large amp draw which results in a quick action.

The big advantage is that the peak and hold style is that they respond much faster at a cost of longevity.

Pintle, disk and ball all refer to the style of nozzle on the injector. There are pros and cons with each. I haven't delved into that as much as it's a mute point as Nippon Denso injectors are setup the way they are setup and that's it. Since our trucks have a saturated driver any saturated injector of a size bigger than ours is most likely a pintle style.

more can be read here

As for calibrating the MAF, that's probably not the way to go about installing larger injectors. With Karman Vortex style MAFs it was a simple procedure to place your sensor in a larger tube to essentially trick the ECM into seeing less air than what was passing through. So basically you find a larger housing and place your sensor in it.

With hot wire sensors it looks like the calibration for larger injectors is within the ECM itself. Basically you have a signal line that varies with air flow up to 5vdc. From reading the FSM at idle you should read about 1.5vdc on that signal line. Now if you were to attach a resistor from that line to ground you would then drop that voltage. That drop in voltage would be seen as a drop in air flow. Drop that voltage by 33% and now you are tuned for 440cc injectors. It's all theory right now and a work in progress.
 
No comment on the OBD II data I took?
 
No comment on the OBD II data I took?

I've only done a little data logging on my truck and the first thing on your truck that I noticed was the negative LTFT value. My was positive. But I'm at sea level so the air would naturally be more dense than other places. Where abouts are you located Ken?
 
What I've read is that they are referred to as Saturated/hi or peak and hold/low. The difference in the injector is their impedance across the coil. The saturated ones have a resistance above 10ohm and the peak and hold are around 3 ohm. They also differ in how they are activated.

The saturated injectors have one leg attached to ground and the other attached to a switched 12v supply. The 12v is triggered and the injector sprays. The advantage is that they run cooler and provide longer life.

In peak and hold, one leg is attached to ground and the other is triggered to 12v. However the trigger is not constantly attached to 12v. It has a wave form where it spikes to 12v then drops off. This spike generates a large amp draw which results in a quick action.

The big advantage is that the peak and hold style is that they respond much faster at a cost of longevity.

The saturated disc type of Mr. T is a high impedence injector rated at 15ohms IIRC. IME, I Don't buy into the trigger system all that much on a 5000rpm motor, the delivery is more key than the activation profile. P&H and saturated both can't exceed 80% DC without issue, and the Pintle types get floaty 5-10% DC less. The real advantage is in the disc comes at both the high end and low end of the DC. A heavy pintle type injector can't do high DC or low DC well, where a disc type can do both very well. Given the 5000rpm redline, P&H would be a waste of money, and hence I only spoke to the two options I see available: A direct replacement high impedence Saturated, or a direct replacement high impedence Pintle type. You see P&H on motors in the 7500>rpm range, we just don't have that.

Pintle, disk and ball all refer to the style of nozzle on the injector. There are pros and cons with each. I haven't delved into that as much as it's a mute point as Nippon Denso injectors are setup the way they are setup and that's it. Since our trucks have a saturated driver any saturated injector of a size bigger than ours is most likely a pintle style.

There are a few apps of saturated injectors larger than ours. That said, I'm not convinced you need a larger injector anyhow, as the fuel from a 29lb injector at the right rail pressure, should more than suffice.

http://www.robietherobot.com/Storm/fuelinjectorguide.htm
As for calibrating the MAF, that's probably not the way to go about installing larger injectors. With Karman Vortex style MAFs it was a simple procedure to place your sensor in a larger tube to essentially trick the ECM into seeing less air than what was passing through. So basically you find a larger housing and place your sensor in it.

Gotta BTDT to understand that's easier in theory than in application. You can trick the MAF, but I'd sure want to know that the full load signal indicates that it's necessary. Otherwise you are chasing the wrong component. As a rule, larger MAF's are used when the stock is a restriction to flow, or is maxed out in terms of measure. I don't believe we have either in a low boost 80 application.

With hot wire sensors it looks like the calibration for larger injectors is within the ECM itself. Basically you have a signal line that varies with air flow up to 5vdc. From reading the FSM at idle you should read about 1.5vdc on that signal line. Now if you were to attach a resistor from that line to ground you would then drop that voltage. That drop in voltage would be seen as a drop in air flow. Drop that voltage by 33% and now you are tuned for 440cc injectors. It's all theory right now and a work in progress.

Again, it's not in practice. Many of the early hot wire MAF, all AFM's, and many KV (including the Lexus one, there's a guy that makes a slick CNC cover for the adjuster) have an adjustment screw for fine tuning the injector match. I don't know if the 80 has this, but it might be good to look for that ability.

I look at all this simply, but not too simply. If what's in the truck can be made to work, I'm not convinced that getting something *else* to work is a more desireable avenue.

With a fuel pump resistor, I'd have a lot of concerns trying to run a larger injector during idle/low load. The reason for that resistor is that the stock fuel pressure is too high for the lowest injector duty cycle of the stock injector on the stock truck. Under vacuum on a boosted truck, you want that same behavior.

IME/O

ST
 
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