Disabling the AHC and AVS systems, no warning lights.

[bloc]

What if I were to replace with OEM LC shocks?

It would be much worse than stock LC “sway” because you wouldn’t get the very thick KDSS sway bar. And before you ask no, I don’t think it can be added. KDSS is a complex system with lines and a large (expensive) control valve, and has special brackets welded to the frame to make it work. You wouldn’t have any of that.

 

[TeCKis300]

If I got the 2.5” option that left the AHC components in place, could I run them without the rattling you experienced?


I’m assuming you had the rattling because half your components were removed?

My goal is to swap to kings but keep everything in place should I want to revert back to original or sell the truck.

My main reason for the conversion is that I cannot stand the side to side sway when turning in my 13 LX. If I can’t get rid of that, I’ll likely sell the truck. I will be extremely satisfied if I can get a more stable, less wallowy ride out of my LX!

Also- is it impossible to run a front sway bar? Why is everyone running without one?

The LX corners surprisingly flat stock. The AHC suspension has a few tricks for roll resistance including higher rate springs on the front axle it selects when cornering or to resist against brake dive. It has cross linking that works like KDSS. It also dynamically increases compression damping, all to resist roll. I'm not sure you'll be better off gutting those features.

IIRC, you're on 17" tall and relatively narrow tires with 0 offset wheels? IMO, most all of your roll is coming from the wheel and tire package. 0 offset along with the tall tire are causing the sidewalls to roll over. You might try higher pressure in the tires, but that will have a negative effect on ride quality. You might also be able to test that theory and throw some stock wheels/tires back on and see how it feels?

 

[turbo8]

I agree with the others, something is off on your setup. Your LX should corner very flat with the stock sways and AHC system.

 

[TeCKis300]

But can AHC make pigs fly? Not sure I'd try.

Can't say I don't think back to the pic of your LX catching air @turbo8

 

[turbo8]

But can AHC make pigs fly? Not sure I'd try.

Can't say I don't think back to the pic of your LX catching air @turbo8

I don't think I posted this in here.

 

[HGB]

The LX corners surprisingly flat stock. The AHC suspension has a few tricks for roll resistance including higher rate springs on the front axle it selects when cornering or to resist against brake dive. It has cross linking that works like KDSS. It also dynamically increases compression damping, all to resist roll. I'm not sure you'll be better off gutting those features.

IIRC, you're on 17" tall and relatively narrow tires with 0 offset wheels? IMO, most all of your roll is coming from the wheel and tire package. 0 offset along with the tall tire are causing the sidewalls to roll over. You might try higher pressure in the tires, but that will have a negative effect on ride quality. You might also be able to test that theory and throw some stock wheels/tires back on and see how it feels?

No- With my 17 0 offset wheels and 10 ply tires, cornering was SIGNIFICANTLY improved over stock. You often say this, but the opposite is what my anecdotal experience has been.

Unfortunately I sold those and am on stock 20s with Michelin defenders. Sway is back to horrible.

I’ve had 3 570s from low to higher mileage. I test drove a new 570 with 300 miles. Mine is as tight as new. @04UZJ100 can confirm lx sway is far worse than any LC. It’s just the way they are, in my experience.

 

[04UZJ100]

With my 17 0 offset wheels and 10 ply tires, cornering was much improved over stock.

Unfortunately I sold those and am on stock 20s with Michelin defenders. Sway is back to horrible.

I’ve had 3 570s from low to higher mileage. I test drove a new 570 with 300 miles. Mine is as tight as new. @04UZJ100 can confirm lx sway is far worse than any LC. It’s just the way they are, in my experience.

The LX drives like a boat in all suspension settings. Both the 2014 and 2020 exhibit the same poor handling characteristics. The Cruiser is remarkably more stable and connected to the road.

 

[HGB]

The LX drives like a boat in all suspension settings. Both the 2014 and 2020 exhibit the same poor handling characteristics. The Cruiser is remarkably more stable and connected to the road.

All sport mode does is make it more bouncy over bumps. Still rolls like a boat. It’s infuriating and is the one thing I despise about the truck, hence why I wanted to explore replacing with static suspension.

 

[04UZJ100]

All sport mode does is make it more bouncy over bumps. Still rolls like a boat. It’s infuriating and is the one thing I despise about the truck.

Is AHC impressive? Yes. It feels very artificial though.

 

[TeCKis300]

No- With my 17 0 offset wheels and 10 ply tires, cornering was SIGNIFICANTLY improved over stock. You often say this, but the opposite is what my anecdotal experience has been.

Unfortunately I sold those and am on stock 20s with Michelin defenders. Sway is back to horrible.

I’ve had 3 570s from low to higher mileage. I test drove a new 570 with 300 miles. Mine is as tight as new. @04UZJ100 can confirm lx sway is far worse than any LC. It’s just the way they are, in my experience.

That's fair. Just trying to help as I'm not sure you're going to get what you want by swapping the suspension out as the LX doesn't have KDSS to back things up without AHC. Everyone's opinion is subjective and my thoughts on roll may be different than what you're talking about. Difference between turn-in, roll, cornering traction, but that may be hard to describe as we talk in general.

It may be worthwhile to note that the LX is quite a bit heavier which may lead to some of the impressions against the LC.

 

[grinchy]

No- With my 17 0 offset wheels and 10 ply tires, cornering was SIGNIFICANTLY improved over stock. You often say this, but the opposite is what my anecdotal experience has been.

Unfortunately I sold those and am on stock 20s with Michelin defenders. Sway is back to horrible.

So you went to a 120 mm wider track and much stiffer tires and liked it? So why not go back in that direction again?

as far as sway bars, maybe you could look at the front bar included on the diesel model?

or just have one fabbed up after you pull the suspension.

 

[HGB]

That's fair. Just trying to help as I'm not sure you're going to get what you want by swapping the suspension out as the LX doesn't have KDSS to back things up without AHC. Everyone's opinion is subjective and my thoughts on roll may be different than what you're talking about. Difference between turn-in, roll, cornering traction, but that may be hard to describe as we talk in general.

It may be worthwhile to note that the LX is quite a bit heavier which may lead to some of the impressions against the LC.

I hope my message didn’t come across curtly. I love AHC and it’s truly remarkable, but the one drawback it has affects me more than it does other people. Everyone has their pet peeves.

So you went to a 120 mm wider track and much stiffer tires and liked it? So why not go back in that direction again?

as far as sway bars, maybe you could look at the front bar included on the diesel model?

or just have one fabbed up after you pull the suspension.

Could I add the diesel lx sway bar with my stock AHC setup? All I want to do is reduce sway and if I can retain AHC, that’d be great.

I didn’t like the on road manners of the off-road setup nor did I enjoy the large fuel economy dip. 4mpg loss would be tolerable if our starting point was 30mpg, but it’s a considerable% loss when you’re already getting 14-15mpg city.

 

[HGB]

I agree it might not be the end all be all but it is really nice. Either you run no bar or one so soft it doesn’t inhibit articulation and deal with the resulting on-road body roll or side hill instability.. or run a stiff bar (if one is even available in non-KDSS format) to get the road handling and limit articulation. KDSS and AHC give you both.

Not that a system with tundra arms and king shocks with a traditional bar won’t be better overall than stock LC suspension with KDSS.. but all that suspension work with the benefit of KDSS is on the table too. Just in a more expensive (used) vehicle.

To be clear I think what you are doing here is awesome..

Does your second point still stand? I'm getting a bit confused with some of the information here. Might look at getting a stiff bar fabricated... I don't care about articulation and don't plan to rock crawl.

 

[HGB]

Can I add a stiffer sway bar and retain AHC if I want to eliminate sway/roll? I don't mind if this compromises articulation as I don't rock crawl.

How about stiffer springs?

 

[bloc]

Does your second point still stand? I'm getting a bit confused with some of the information here. Might look at getting a stiff bar fabricated... I don't care about articulation and don't plan to rock crawl.

Meaning Tundra arms/kings might be better overall than stock LC? If so, it depends on your goals. This may be worse for cornering (sway), but better in terms of total travel/damping/soaking up big bumps in the desert/crawling/etc. But it would probably be worse than stock LC for corner lean.. they are particularly good with that. You should see how thick a KDSS sway bar is.. it's crazy. But that plus the off-road capability is only possible due to the disconnecting nature of the KDSS system.

Can I add a stiffer sway bar and retain AHC if I want to eliminate sway/roll? I don't mind if this compromises articulation as I don't rock crawl.

The issue is where to get the stiffer bar. Someone suggested a diesel 200 might have one available.. I assume due to the extra weight of that engine package. You'd have to do the research to see how much different it is, if at all. But, if that diesel 200 doesn't have KDSS it will probably bolt up with the correct brackets/bushings/links, as toyota tends to make things like this mostly interchangeable.

I don't know the measurements, but a 2013 US LX570 URJ201L had front sway bar part number 48811-60280, while a 2013 Australian Landcruiser VDJ201L without KDSS had a slightly different 48811-60290 (-90 vs -80).. so the number is different. Finding measurements could be tough. Probably need to locate someone with one of these and have them measure the diameter with calipers to compare to yours. The bushings have different part numbers while the bushing brackets are the same, which implies the inner diameter of the bushing is different.

IF it is thicker, and you can get ahold of one here in the states, I think it would bolt up. But this could be a lot of cost for very little gain.. it is probably much cheaper and easier to throw a set of globes on yours and see whether it changes things favorably.

 

[HGB]

Meaning Tundra arms/kings might be better overall than stock LC? If so, it depends on your goals. This may be worse for cornering (sway), but better in terms of total travel/damping/soaking up big bumps in the desert/crawling/etc. But it would probably be worse than stock LC for corner lean.. they are particularly good with that. You should see how thick a KDSS sway bar is.. it's crazy. But that plus the off-road capability is only possible due to the disconnecting nature of the KDSS system.



The issue is where to get the stiffer bar. Someone suggested a diesel 200 might have one available.. I assume due to the extra weight of that engine package. You'd have to do the research to see how much different it is, if at all. But, if that diesel 200 doesn't have KDSS it will probably bolt up with the correct brackets/bushings/links, as toyota tends to make things like this mostly interchangeable.

I don't know the measurements, but a 2013 US LX570 URJ201L had front sway bar part number 48811-60280, while a 2013 Australian Landcruiser VDJ201L without KDSS had a slightly different 48811-60290 (-90 vs -80).. so the number is different. Finding measurements could be tough. Probably need to locate someone with one of these and have them measure the diameter with calipers to compare to yours. The bushings have different part numbers while the bushing brackets are the same, which implies the inner diameter of the bushing is different.

IF it is thicker, and you can get ahold of one here in the states, I think it would bolt up. But this could be a lot of cost for very little gain.. it is probably much cheaper and easier to throw a set of globes on yours and see whether it changes things favorably.

Bloc, thank you for the well thought out and informative reply. I'm grasping at straws here before I trade in the vehicle on something else. I am a huge advocate of these rigs (I've had 4 including one 100-series and three 200-series, so I know the merits... but I am sensitive to the roll when taking slow turns (into grocery store, around round-a-bout, etc). I am used to my previous G-class SUV as well as Range Rovers my friends have.

Would stiffer coils work? I know that's a lot of work to remove the rear shocks so I am a bit hesitant to just try that out without having a bit of guidance.

Any other ideas you may think that could get better handling? I'd prefer to stay on the factory 20's with Michelin's.

 

[bloc]

Bloc, thank you for the well thought out and informative reply. I'm grasping at straws here before I trade in the vehicle on something else. I am a huge advocate of these rigs (I've had 4 including one 100-series and three 200-series, so I know the merits... but I am sensitive to the roll when taking slow turns (into grocery store, around round-a-bout, etc). I am used to my previous G-class SUV as well as Range Rovers my friends have.

Would stiffer coils work? I know that's a lot of work to remove the rear shocks so I am a bit hesitant to just try that out without having a bit of guidance.

Any other ideas you may think that could get better handling? I'd prefer to stay on the factory 20's with Michelin's.

Have you owned a 200-series landcruiser yet? Or driven one the same way? If so did that have the same problem? As I said the bar in those is very thick, and while AHC is supposed to actively simulate the same thing I think a before/after could help determine the extent. You wouldn’t be the first person to say the LX feels like it wallows around on the road, though others say the opposite.

Stiffer coils could help in theory but you’d have to go way up in rate and likely not appreciate how stiff the ride would be overall. I’m not as familiar with the g-wagon or RR suspension intricacies but with their price point and intended use I could imagine them having more in the way of active roll control systems. Plus it can come down to suspension pickup points, roll center, CoG, lots of factors.

 

[TeCKis300]

Bloc, thank you for the well thought out and informative reply. I'm grasping at straws here before I trade in the vehicle on something else. I am a huge advocate of these rigs (I've had 4 including one 100-series and three 200-series, so I know the merits... but I am sensitive to the roll when taking slow turns (into grocery store, around round-a-bout, etc). I am used to my previous G-class SUV as well as Range Rovers my friends have.

Would stiffer coils work? I know that's a lot of work to remove the rear shocks so I am a bit hesitant to just try that out without having a bit of guidance.

Any other ideas you may think that could get better handling? I'd prefer to stay on the factory 20's with Michelin's.

Have you owned a 200-series landcruiser yet? Or driven one the same way? If so did that have the same problem? As I said the bar in those is very thick, and while AHC is supposed to actively simulate the same thing I think a before/after could help determine the extent. You wouldn’t be the first person to say the LX feels like it wallows around on the road, though others say the opposite.

Stiffer coils could help in theory but you’d have to go way up in rate and likely not appreciate how stiff the ride would be overall. I’m not as familiar with the g-wagon or RR suspension intricacies but with their price point and intended use I could imagine them having more in the way of active roll control systems. Plus it can come down to suspension pickup points, roll center, CoG, lots of factors.

Without getting into a who's roll bar is bigger debate, it's not really an apples to apples comparison of size because the AHCs roll resistance and cross linking capability acts directly on the shocks hydraulically. It doesn't need an oversized torsion bar to translate those forces between the wheels.

@HGB, as you're trying to get more sportiness out of the LX, you might try adjusting the AHC height sensors to lower your car. Could lower about .5 - 1" which would do a few things. You'd be pioneering here as no-one really has done this, or at least given feedback here.
- adds pre-load to the coil springs. This may or may not actually make the overall suspension system stiffer as the globes will be relatively more relaxed. Same would be true if you could actually locate stiffer coils to retrofit.
- lowers center of gravity

If you could source the diesel variant sway bar, that may be worth a try. I'm not sure too much will be gained as I find AHC to do a solid job managing roll. I think it's a feel thing rather than the body rolling over much. Perhaps focus on the rear sway in particular as that will make the front end more responsive to turn-in. Short of finding a stiffer compatible bar, you could try to shim or eliminate the bushings on the rear sway end link at the chassis brackets to engage the rear sway more positively.

You could also try to source the LX 21" factory wheels to reduce compliance. Or go with sportier tire models that have stiffer sidewalls.

 

[grinchy]

I suggest trying to widen the track, try a 25 or 32mm spacer.

 

[bloc]

Without getting into a who's roll bar is bigger debate, it's not really an apples to apples comparison of size because the AHCs roll resistance and cross linking capability acts directly on the shocks hydraulically. It doesn't need an oversized torsion bar to translate those forces between the wheels.

Oh I'm aware AHC does some of the job of the sway bar, but I haven't seen it quantified anywhere when compared to a standard bar. My point about the diesel bar was just that it could probably be thrown in to enhance the current setup, or if they end up ditching AHC and trying out Kings or something the diesel bar might make up for some of the lost sway control that the AHC provides, because retrofitting KDSS is nearly impossible.