Aftermarket Performance 2F Cams

[PabloCruise]

I got mine from Delta Camshaft Inc.
Perf 250 S grind
Duration intake 250
Duration exhaust 254
Intakes opens 17, closes 58
Exhaust opens 60 closes 14
cam rise .255 L/C 108 degrees
Lash intake .014 exhaust .014

I am very happy with mine. Runs strong on the freeway or wheeling. I'm running 2F-H41-Orion-4.10-37s.

gary

Well I know Delta is still in business, so quoting these specs for possible future reference.

AFAIK, Downey Off Road ceased operations in 2009.

MAF is still here, their RV cam (260 degrees duration) shows out of stock: https://manafrelv.com/product/man-a-fre-rv-cam-kit-for-75-8-87-toyota-2f-engine/

 

[PabloCruise]

Basically the 3FE specs show that the timing of the cam has been advanced 5 degrees. In general this will increase lower rpm effeciency at some loss of top end effeciency. It is related to intake manaifold design. At higher rpm you can actually pack more air fuel mixture into the cylinder by utilizing the inertia odf the moving charge in the intake runners. This inertia causes the air to pileup against the back of the intake valve when it closes. At higher rpm a valve that opens earlier can take advantage of this "rebound" effect before it dissipates.



A longer duration cam does the same, as well as letting the moving air fuel charge pile up against the climbing piston at the end of the intake stroke. The valve actually stays open as the piston reaches the bottom and starts up. The momentum of the charge keeps it moving into the cylinder even without the suction of the piston moving downward.

The key here is to close the intake valve before the compression of the upward moving piston overpowers the momentum of the air/fuel.

When the valve needs to close to do this depends on the speed of the intake charge and the weight of the charge. The weight depends on the length of the intake tract. The speed depends on the rpm of the engine, the shape of the intake passage, the texture of the walls and a variety of other smaller factors.

This stuff also effects the stacking of the charge against the intake valve after it closes.


Short answer is that the 5 degree advance moves the powerband down a bit.


Mark...

So for the reasons listed above, a factory 3FE cam is not the best choice for a 2F in need of a new cam.

 

[PabloCruise]

My Cam specs are as follows

Camshaft specification duration 220deg @.050". Valve lift 0.43" Final decision yet to be made, will post up later once ordered

IIRC, this engine made some pretty nice power.
@matt.mcinnes - is this what you ended up running?

 

[PabloCruise]

delta KC 289 into my 2F made it a bit of a monster...I have considered swapping in a reground stock profile to see what it takes away...Aslo considered adding the E to the 2F...We'll see which way I go...(2FE with delta RV grind)

I am hearing this pop up a few different places as a nice grind for a 2F - do you have the specs for this @LAMBCRUSHER ?

 

[PabloCruise]

FWIW. The Melling MC803 seems to have been a popular stock, made in USA cam replacement. However, most suppliers like Summit, Jegs, Autozone and others say that it will ship directly from Melling. When doing a parts lookup on the Melling website, it doesn’t list any cams. I called Melling and asked if the MC803 is to be discontinued and they said there has been no decision to discontinue it but there are no MC803s available at this time. They also said they have no info if they will become available again. Maybe there is someone at Melling with more info on the MC803, but I didn’t pursue it.

I think I saw somewhere that Jim C @FJ40Jim likes this cam.
Here it is on Summit Melling MC803 Melling Stock Replacement Camshafts | Summit Racing - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-mc803

189 degrees of intake duration at 050 inch lift, 193 degrees of exhaust duration at 050 inch lift, 109 degrees of lobe separation.

 

[RockDoc]

I am hearing this pop up a few different places as a nice grind for a 2F - do you have the specs for this @LAMBCRUSHER ?

Camshaft

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[PabloCruise]

FWIW. The Melling MC803 seems to have been a popular stock, made in USA cam replacement. However, most suppliers like Summit, Jegs, Autozone and others say that it will ship directly from Melling. When doing a parts lookup on the Melling website, it doesn’t list any cams. I called Melling and asked if the MC803 is to be discontinued and they said there has been no decision to discontinue it but there are no MC803s available at this time. They also said they have no info if they will become available again. Maybe there is someone at Melling with more info on the MC803, but I didn’t pursue it.

Here is where I saw Jim C say he likes that came as a stock replacement: (post is from 2008, so...)

Camshaft

Here is what we now know: Currently the 2F and 3F-E camshaft carry the same Toyota part number. This 1988 new features booklet (page 18 of the PDF, 122 of the booklet) states that the cams are different. Mark W uses Delta Camshaft Part number KC859 with 262* advertised duration. I also use...

forum.ih8mud.com

It looks like he also uses the SealedPower CS803 - Summit listing here: Sealed Power CS-803 - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-cs-803 - shows as Not Available.

 

[PabloCruise]

Camshaft

forum.ih8mud.com

Thanks Doc!
Funny that I ended up over there too, looks like I have some reading to do to get there...

 

[PabloCruise]

Camshaft

forum.ih8mud.com

And then @ERNRAM went to the effort to compile all this info into a table.
I have not checked for accuracy:

Camshaft

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[RUSH55]

@DTC72 just finished replacing his cam. Maybe he can deposit his $0.02?

 

[PabloCruise]

A 262 degree (advertised) duration cam will wake your 2F up nicely and will happily pull to and beyond 5000 if the rest of the motor is matched to it.

I would not even consider a cam of lesser duration than stock, and I can't believe anyone would grind one.

Limiting yourself to 3000 is a bad idea. You are throwing away most of your power. Even the factory rated stock motors at 3600 for peak horsepower.

The Dualport is an Offenhauser manifold, not an Edelbrock. It is specifically for a four barrel carb. Not a particularly high flowing manifold (the C series is much better) but it lets you use a 4bbl and gain notable midrange and top end without low end losses.



Mark...

I know @RUSH55 has moved on from this, but I looked up the Offenhauser offerings - the website is gold. The catalog looks like a scan of a print edition. Love it...

Offenhauser - The Greatest Name In Racing

We design, manufacture, and distribute over 900 unique, top-quality automotive performance products, including: intake manifolds, valve covers, and cylinder heads. Every Offenhauser part is made from the highest quality alloys available at Bell Foundry in South Gate, California. Each Offenhauser...

offenhauser.co

https://offenhauser.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Offenhauser-Catalog-1987.pdf

 

[PabloCruise]

I got mine from Delta Camshaft Inc.
Perf 250 S grind
Duration intake 250
Duration exhaust 254
Intakes opens 17, closes 58
Exhaust opens 60 closes 14
cam rise .255 L/C 108 degrees
Lash intake .014 exhaust .014

I am very happy with mine. Runs strong on the freeway or wheeling. I'm running 2F-H41-Orion-4.10-37s.

gary

I called the folks at Delta today, the first thing they wanted to know was what elevation I live and drive the 40.
For right at 5000' above sea level, they recommend the 250 S, a mild cam that is close to 2F factory grind.

 

[DickM]

The 40 has the Delta 250S grind cam in it with a 2F. I haven't put a lot of miles on it yet, as I recently "finished" the " re-body, re-power re-do a lot up of everything while you are in there" on it. It is a trail rig.
The 60 has the Delta KC859 grind cam with a 2FE. It has a lot of both road and off road miles on it as it was a camping /expedition vehicle. It is now (I guess) an "overlanding" vehicle.
My seat of the pants comparison is that the 250s has better lower rpm power, with the KC 859 not really waking up until around 2000 rpm.
Both motors are built very much the same - oversize pistons, Chevy valves ,decked for a little more compression and a little balancing.
For me, I like the KC859 grind for the higher rpm "overlanding" road miles in the 60. It still wheels good, but you have to stay around the 2000 rpm to really keep it pulling strong.
The 250s grind feels good on the trail in the 40. It makes power early and pulls nicely through the power band.
If I had it to do over again, I would go with the 250s grind in the 60 in lieu of the KC859, especially, as @PabloCruise pointed out, due to the mostly high altitude wheeling I do.
This my purely anecdotal experience. As you probably noticed, I didn't clutter the issue with much in the way of facts.

 

[DTC72]

@DTC72 just finished replacing his cam. Maybe he can deposit his $0.02?

The extent of my camshaft research for my 1985 2F:
1) my aftermarket camshaft was bad and ruined the cam gear and thrust plate
2) after looking for a used Toyota camshaft no one world confirm if it was good/bad or could be ground within tolerance
3) I found a Chinese made one at JT Outfitters but was not so sure about quality
4) Binmahmoodstores in Yemen had 3 NOS Toyota camshafts so I bought one

A picture of the NOS one on the top and the CWC blank that was most likely ground to spec by a PO on the bottom. Notice the size differences.

 

[PabloCruise]

The extent of my camshaft research for my 1985 2F:
1) my aftermarket camshaft was bad and ruined the cam gear and thrust plate
2) after looking for a used Toyota camshaft no one world confirm if it was good/bad or could be ground within tolerance
3) I found a Chinese made one at JT Outfitters but was not so sure about quality
4) Binmahmoodstores in Yemen had 3 NOS Toyota camshafts so I bought one

A picture of the NOS one on the top and the CWC blank that was most likely ground to spec by a PO on the bottom. Notice the size differences.

View attachment 3200358

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What is CWC?
How did your other cam ruin the timing gear and thrust plate?
Couldn't you just measure the used cam and inspect surfaces to know if good or not?

Thanks!

 

[FJ40Jim]

CWC makes most of the aftermarket cam blanks. They grind some, others go to companies like isky or Comp for their proprietary grind.

 

[DTC72]

Not sure what year a PO put in the CWC aftermarket cam. I can’t figure out how the excessive wear happened either. Makes no sense but the wear marks seem to indicate the cam and attached cam gear having too much back and forth motion rather than just circular rotation. Must have happened over many many miles. The used CWC cam had visible ridges on several of the lobes. I took it to a shop to see if it could be ground and they said nope,,,too far gone.

 

[PabloCruise]

Not sure what year a PO put in the CWC aftermarket cam. I can’t figure out how the excessive wear happened either. Makes no sense but the wear marks seem to indicate the cam and attached cam gear having too much back and forth motion rather than just circular rotation. Must have happened over many many miles. The used CWC cam had visible ridges on several of the lobes. I took it to a shop to see if it could be ground and they said nope,,,too far gone.

Delta said no?

 

[FJ40Jim]

Delta can rebuild any cam. It will cost extra to have severely worn lobes or bearings welded back up, but if it's an obscure vintage car that's what is done.

 

[DTC72]

Delta can rebuild any cam. It will cost extra to have severely worn lobes or bearings welded back up, but if it's an obscure vintage car that's what is done.

Only checked with a local shop about grinding/smoothing back to spec not rebuilding. Felt pretty lucky when I found a new old stock Toyota cam for $695