84-85 22RE timing / engine help

[D'Animal]

I'm helping a friend out here. I searched but could not find anything that pertained to this.

Customer had a 22RE engine rebuilt in his 1984 mini about 8 years ago. It has never ran right so he does not drive it. It has sat at three differnt shops for the last 6 years and nobody can figure it out, now it is at my friends shop.

We found out a little history that the engine builder did about 20 engines at a time. I understand that he tore them all apart and had all the blocks bored as needed, had all the cranks turned as needed, heads rebuilt as need, etc. If you can imagine taking about 30 22re engines and building up 20 of them you will understand this thread.

I understand that there was some transistions to the 22re in 1984 to 1985 and not all the parts are the same.

The problem is that timing is way off. When timed correctly using the yellow dot on the camshaft gear the distributor will only go to 0. When you move over a tooth on the distributor it will not time at all, like it is off a tooth.

Tried a different 22re distributor with the same results.

Are the block heights different between the 1984 and 1985 22re engines?

Are the head thicknesses different between the 1984 and 1985 22re engines?

He did find that the head on the engine has been shaved .020".

Is there a block # and Head # that are compatible and not compatible?


Thanks in advance.

Dan

 

[ToyotaDon]

Is he sure the cam timing is correct?

 

[D'Animal]

Yep, yellow dot on the cam gear straight up at TDC on #1 cylinder.

I think this engine was built for part from a couple of different years of engines.

 

[inkpot]

Yep, yellow dot on the cam gear straight up at TDC on #1 cylinder.

I think this engine was built for part from a couple of different years of engines.

Howdy! Is there a chance that the keyway on the crank is not indexed properly, like it could be a cheap aftermarket unit? Could the timing chain tensioner be loose and allowing the cam to rock? What are the symptoms of "not running right"? What are the differences between those years, as I may be doing a transplant in the near future? John

 

[WarDamnEagle]

Dan, I'm no expert by any means but I thought the 22RE engine wasn't available until 1985? I know it wasn't available in 4Runners until 1985 and I thought it was later than that for the mini trucks. The 1984 should have had a 22R engine and, yes, that engine is different than a 22RE (and I mean different other than just the fuel injection aspects).

I've seen many different posts on the differences and I think Hilux recently tried to build a hybrid between the two but I can't tell you what those differences are and how that might affect the timing.

 

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

At TDC the dot on the cam sprocket should not be at 12:00 it should be at 11:30 Sounds like the cam timing may be off a tooth...

 

[ToyotaDon]

Like this?




BTW, the 22RE was available in 1984.

 

[inkpot]

Like this?

BTW, the 22RE was available in 1984.

Howdy! Yup, that would be enough to do it. Wonder why Toyota didn't paint the dot straight up, like everybody else?? I always thought my 85 was "first year for fuel injection and last year for solid axle". Was the 1984 22re just a late production date for the 85's, or were they available all year? John

 

[ken_79-fj40]

I think the 22re was only available on automatics in trucks in 84. But 84 celicas used the 22re. I have what I think is a similar problem with my 89. Ever since my brother in law changed the timing chain (it was his truck before I got it) the timing has been majorly screwed up. He installed it in my garage, and I was there when he did it and both timing marks were dead on. If I advance the distributor as far as it will physically go the truck runs OK but is pretty sackless especially at speed. Of course it does have 31's and a plow on it. I tried moving the timing chain one tooth in either direction at the cam gear a few years ago. In one direction it wouldn't even start. In the other direction it would start, but was even worse. So I put it back and haven't messed with it since. It's just been a yard truck since I got my tacoma anyhow. But I somehow suspect the timing set might have been wrong. But I had always thought all 22r's and 22re's used the same pieces.

 

[Hilux]

Are the head thicknesses different between the 1984 and 1985 22re engines?

No, IIRC all the heads are the same height, which is what bothers me about what else I'm about to say....[dramatic pause]

Are the block heights different between the 1984 and 1985 22re engines?

Yes. There are technically two 22R's. But since one is mostly dismissed as just an "E", often the topic of deck height is neglected. It also doesn't help you could get a carbed 22R up until 90 something. Even though it's a RE, just a carbed one.

General Automotive Tech: 22R Block and Head Identification

LC Engineering

ahhh, found it! (does not apply to you but gives you an idea about the two)

Cylinder Head / Camshaft Tech: Using a 20R Head on an 85-95 22RE Block

He did find that the head on the engine has been shaved .020".

Is there a block # and Head # that are compatible and not compatible?

Yes, any EFI head with any pre-85 "tall deck".

Visa-vee, the long chain from a tall deck will not work on a short deck.

And visa-versa, which is what I suspect.


Get it? There's two chains. And ANYTIME I hear about somebody that's working on a truck right at those years, I automatically suspect this.

Thanks in advance.

Dan

If that helped, you're welcome

 

[Hilux]

And BTW. The dowel goes at 12:00, not the dot.

The two (dowel and dot) are SLIGHTLY miss-aligned, they are not exact to one another.

 

[raydouble]

Maybe look in to this???
important efi information!!!

 

[D'Animal]

Thanks for responses.

I will swing by his shop tomorrow morning and show him you posts.


I will let you know what the outcome is. He is just trying to fix others mistakes.

 

[Hilux]

Hey, D. If you can, count the links in the chain and tell me exactly what motor you have.

I think we can diagnose if it's the right chain. Be accurate though, they are different by one link.

 

[D'Animal]

He has the short deck block. The block height is 11 1/8 inches. He has the Tall deck timing chain and it is two links longer that the one that was in it as well as a new one for a 1985 22RE..

 

[D'Animal]

The static timing using any of the the 3 22RE distributors he has is off.

With the distributor on the in the fully advanced mode, it is 0 degrees.

With the distributor moved one tooth off, it is 20 degrees full retard.

 

[D'Animal]

The customer said he had a "RV" cam installed during the rebuild of this engine.

 

[D'Animal]

The correct short deck timing chain is very sloppy on the gears. The tensioner is not even compressed when the chain is installed. New "factory" chain guides are installed as well as replacement set has been installed. They are the same.

 

[D'Animal]

The timing kit installation kit says it needs 3.785" minumum or a head saver shim kit must be installed. He is at 3.764", measured three times.

The headsaver shim kit is .020". If installed it will still not be within tolerance. He is using the Fel-Pro 8807 SP.

The block is a 1985 "Laser" block as well as 1985 Pear shaped exhaust ports. So the head and block are correct for each other. I'm thinking the block has been and the head has been shaved too much.

 

[Hilux]

He has the short deck block. The block height is 11 1/8 inches. He has the Tall deck timing chain and it is two links longer that the one that was in it as well as a new one for a 1985 22RE..

I had to count one on my truck one time, and had to do it several times. It's that easy to mess up. Plus, I was by my self.


I have/ had a pic with all three Toyota timing chains side to side, and I can tell you, they are one link apart.

(20/22r dual row, 22r single row, and 22r/e single row)

I'll try later to get a pic

one link. IDK how you got two. And plus the differences in deck height are in the .190.....two links would be waaaayyy out