3B Rebuild and Performance Notes

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yotahed said:
"Was just wondering if we can use a manual boost controller on the reference line?"

-You could, but it would be very "jerky" in operation. The reference pressure would be blocked, resulting in boost throttling of the diaphragm until it opened. Once open, it would operate similar to stock, but I dont think it would work that well, or as well as a needle restrictor valve. With the the needle valve, you get a set flow for any given boost level, as opposed to the on-off function of a boost controller. But feel free to test it out. All good tech test info is welcome here,

"Also what would be the effect of moving the atmosphere reference line before turbo?"

This would give a similar effect to the boost throttling described earlier. Would be much the same as just disconnecting it and having it open to atmosphere, but worse, since you would now be be adding a bit of vacuum to the reference side under boost, multiplying the undesired effect.

One fellow I spoke to moved the reference line further from the throttle body towards the turbo and said he had good results, but I havent confirmed this with any testing. Not sure if it would make a large difference or not. But again, It's worth a look.
Click to expand...

Great.. so my experiments begin now :-) i rotated the reference line a few degrees 30 degree approx... the response.. instant kick and black smoke.. turned fuel screw in 1/8 to reduced smoke.. will test out on road

How why i dont know.. i am playing with it.. my 2B has a mitsibishi tc05 non wastegated turbo with a max boost of 7psi at pedal to metal situation
 
GTSSportCoupe said:
Nice job on the intercooler! Can't wait to hear how it effect's EGT's/power, etc. Also looking forward to more pics. Keep up the good work.
Click to expand...

Thanks Nick. You and me both. I'll get some more pics up once its hooked in.

As far as rotating the reference port, I tried this awhile back, and found it gave similar results(although not as pronounced) as a needle valve restrictor. My theory is that rotating the inlet port to face away from the direct airflow reduces the "shock" of the increase in pressure and volume, giving a more immediate response in initial throttle. Beyond the initial "kick", I didn't see much difference otherwise.
I think 90* to the airflow would be ideal, but its difficult to rotate that far and still be able to hook up the hose.
I stumbled upon a large check valve in my tool box today, so I may test out the "zero positive pressure" system setup described earlier in the thread....


...via IH8MUD app
 
I've been reading up on injector nozzle replacement. It seems a lot of guys over on the Merc forums have really good results from Monark, and Bosio nozzles over the Bosch stock replacements. Better atomization and pop. Reports are better power through the rev range, as well as improved economy and usually less smoke.
Bosch seemed to have farmed their manufacturing out to India, and have somewhat compromised QC. Monark are made in Germany and Bosio in Italy.
I've contacted Monark about a source either through themselves or elsewhere. Damn hard to find sources for these nozzles other than stock bosch parts. Nozzle reference numbers are:
Bosch # 0434 250 014
Stamping # DN4SD24
Mfr #(Toyota) 2362076010

Monark # 39305014
Bosio # BN4SD24

For anyone interested in joining the search.... :beer:

Sent with greasy fingers
 
That is a pretty cool find. Just searching for the monark serial turned up several European places. Seems like there 30$ each for nozzles before shipping. Not that expensive really, just the shipping that might push the price up over Bosch. I'll call my shop tomorrow and see what they would charge to get them in.
g
 
Yes those prices are pretty close to what I saw as well. A TDI supplier said he could get them, but special order only... Ill check with the local shop here as well, but I've a feeling they only deal with Bosch/Denso/Zexel.... We shall see.

Sent with greasy fingers
 
What was the pattern and pop like on those Spaco nozzles? Never heard of that brand. Though I'd also never heard of Bosio or Monark till a few days ago either....
I read Bosch don't pop like they used to, the audible "click" when the needle seats after spraying.
The others are supposed to be miles better than the Bosch

I heard back from Monark, and the rep asked me to be a distributor for BC lol. I guess the nearest is Toronto....

Anyhow. Next run of Monark nozzles will be available later in the year and can be ordered direct through the Monark website edit: only orders above 400Euro will be accepted directly.
But there is a place in Bellingham WA as well as Toronto that I'll be contacting soon.

Sent with greasy fingers
 
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yotahed said:
Thanks Nick. You and me both. I'll get some more pics up once its hooked in.

As far as rotating the reference port, I tried this awhile back, and found it gave similar results(although not as pronounced) as a needle valve restrictor. My theory is that rotating the inlet port to face away from the direct airflow reduces the "shock" of the increase in pressure and volume, giving a more immediate response in initial throttle. Beyond the initial "kick", I didn't see much difference otherwise.
I think 90* to the airflow would be ideal, but its difficult to rotate that far and still be able to hook up the hose.
I stumbled upon a large check valve in my tool box today, so I may test out the "zero positive pressure" system setup described earlier in the thread....

...via IH8MUD app
Click to expand...

Okay rotated the referwnce line 90 degree... yes it improves.. but with smoke so had to bring the fuel down by 1/4 turn.. so far good.. need a trip to the highway to test out
 
akifjanjua said:
Okay rotated the referwnce line 90 degree... yes it improves.. but with smoke so had to bring the fuel down by 1/4 turn.. so far good.. need a trip to the highway to test out
Click to expand...


Are you turbo-ed or non turbo?
EGT guage?


Sent with greasy fingers
 
You should see more like 450*C max post turbo. How far away from the turbo is the probe?

Sent with greasy fingers
 
Vacuum side check valve test

Gave a go at the "zero boost" operation of the venturi system finally.

Plugged off the reference from the butterfly. Left the IP port open to atmosphere. Placed a large check valve(nipples were 3/8" and 1/2") in the vacuum line oriented to allow vacuum and not positive pressure.

Results are less than astounding. Engine fails to start without throttle, and wouldn't stay running.
Can not even rev it up at all.
So there's that theory busted for reference later.

Afterward, I started experimenting with the orientation of the reference port again as mentioned a few posts earlier.
I first unscrewed it as far as I could until it hit an injection line, wrapped thread sealer tape around the threads(figured, "why not?, i'm here now" :) ), and screwed back in to its original depth, but oriented the port 180*, or straight down.
Beforehand it was about 45* off from pointing straight up.

Results- laggy response, little more smoke, truck just felt slower than before.

Re-positioned with the port facing 90* or right at the butterfly housing wall

Results- More kick off the line, very good response, less smoke from the pipe. Obviously the best position. A tad better than 45*, a lot better than 180*, and obviously better than 0*(stock). . A little bit of goofy hose routing is necessary to have it oriented this way, but nothing too difficult.

:beer:
 
Kind of a s***ty pic, but it's pretty self explanatory....(note this pic is off a truck where the butterfly housing is horizontal instead of vertical like mine.)
The outside end of the port has flats for a wrench. CAREFULLY turn the fitting, as it may or may not break loose right away. Just dont go neanderthal on it, and watch your injector lines.
Orient it for the easiest hose routing onto the nipple, as one way may allow more room for a clamp/clearance than the other way.

Mine points about 45* toward the back of the motor, the other way would point it down at the intake manifold and would be pretty hard to get the hose or a clamp on.

Obviously you'll need a new piece of hose. I used high pressure fuel injection hose and transferred the inner spring from the old hose into the new. Helps eliminate kinking.

I'll post a pic of mine tommorow. It's pretty dark out now...

butterfly.webp
 
Pump plunger rotation adjustment

Getting back to the question a few pages back,

The adjustment of the plungers can indeed be used to deliver a higher quantity of fuel, however this is a "global" adjustment and will affect the entire throttle range from idle to full load. Like turning up the fuel screw. Secondly, to obtain an accurate adjustment, this needs to be done on a test bench because you are basically calibrating the pump at full throttle to deliver a pre-determined quantity of fuel over the course of several hundred(usually 300) revolutions of the pump, and ALL cylinders need to be calibrated to the exact same quantity. Not an adjustment even a seasoned tech can do in the field without a test bench.
I guess it would be possible if you rigged up a rev counter and plumbed lines off the pump into individual measuring cylinders. Kind of a DIY pump calibrator if you will. but again this a very EXACT adjustment and would be a good way to seriously FU$K your calibration and end up taking it to a tech to be redone anyway.

Just some tech info for those those who mightve be wondering.

Theres a youtube video of a class learning this exact adjustment. damned if i can find it right now though...
 
Ive been looking at precups on ebay aus for the 1HZ.
http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/200984858182?nav=SEARCH
I wonder if these would fit the 3B head.....looks like a larger hole and slightly different shape.
Also really tryin to get my hands on a set of bosio or monark nozzles.
Ive been chatting with the owner of the shop on the possibility of retrofitting a different housing to the back of my pump for mechanical throttle, or taking a 13bt pump and fitting 3B internals and cam.(with a bit of spice of course!)
Theres piles of parts and older inlines in the back, im sure there would be something kicking around i could build.

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Hulsty said:
Thought about a 13BT pump no mods? Should bolt up, would need to mod the shut down system though.
Click to expand...

The timing is different and i think the cam and delivery valves and plungers would be different as well because of the higher injection pressures. Theyre roughly double the 3B pressures(around 2800psi i think.)
Id most likely have to fit my timer gear as well.

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Cool, just I thought it might be worth having a crack.

Different engines and all, but my mate bolted a 1HDFT pump onto a 1HZ, no changes and it hauls arse, only issue is governor doesnt work (probably related to the pump sitting around unsed for 2 years) and revs to 6000rpm now.

Similarly going from DI to IDI though and with stock 1HZ injectors.
 
Thats really interesting because the 1hz injector opening pressure is around 1840psi and the 1hdft is over 3000psi. Id be interested to see a spray pattern at that pressure.. Not to mention how he timed it. Probably goes through a lot of fuel?
Could be why the governor is funky, but it shouldnt rev that high regardless of pressure....the fly weights are probably worn out or broken or not adjusted. I did a VE today and we chucked the fly weights because they were ever so slightly worn... Even a couple thou makes a large difference in operation...

Edit: I thought about it some more, and it seems to me the 1HZ injector would still crack at ~1850psi but would definitely stay open for longer as the delivery valves and plunger at the pump would be set to flow much more fuel and at the higher pressure (12mm vs 10mm plunger). You would think it would smoke black a LOT unless you ran very high boost with quick spool and advanced the timing quite a bit.

Im intrigued :beer:

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