Why every 60 should have a v8

[T-bones 60]

saying that an i6 is going to out perform a v8 is ridiculous. cubic inches rule regardless of the number of cylinders or the placement of said cylinders.

Not really these days. I have driven many V6's that out power v8's. My girls new V6 Altima has 5 more HP than my Lexus V8. A BMW twin turbo I6 335ci makes quick work of most V8's.

Now that being said, the antiquicated desingn of a 2F means any more modern design will out power it and the 60's are the slowest things on the road with a 2F. But there are few engins ever made that will out last a Toyota I6.

 

[coolotisdog]

A simple post about speed and the need to have a v8 spawns a pretty good debate of opinions. That is awesome. That was no my intention, but it is pretty entertaining.

 

[Conkhi]

It seems cost is the limiting factor for most people in that why they choose to use a v8 rather than better more efficient engines. 3K swaps vs 10k swaps is what it comes down to. Probably why we have not seen any cummins with 6 speed auto conversions yet.

 

[SNLC]

I'd just like to point out that for trail running, a V8 is going to be easier to kill with low RPMs, as well as being considerably louder, and use more gas than a 2F when you're crawling over rocks and washouts for hours on end.

Not the v8 that was in my 60. Aka the Ramjet. Put the trans in 1st low, idle along at 800rmps, step on brake not touching clutch and truck would not die just creep along. In fact it really was no different then an automatic in 4wd low and 1st gear, ie control truck with brake pedal + go pedal.

Nothing wrong with a modern day fuel injected v8. I only got rid of the 60 with the ramjet since I am going diesel. My list of v8s I would run is small and all would be fuel injected.

Been 20 years since I drove a 60 with the 2F. I recall it being damn slow but back then the speed limit was 55mph. I don't recall it being a HUGE gas hog but it also wasn't saving me any money on fuel. This was back in 1991 in an 87 FJ60 and I did put 40k miles on the truck while I owned it. I don't recall a single problem with the motor during that time.

 

[GeologistFelix]

I think people do v8 swaps because they have a vehicle they love, is classic, and is more capable than most other vehicles..... but they hate the sluggish, inefficient, spaghetti line mess called the 2f.

Just my opinion of course. Darn purists...

Now, hold on. There's a difference between air pollution and noise pollution. Every rig is going to put out exhaust, but unless it's a diesel with a huge amount of blowby, it's going to take a lot more than one rig to do much to the air in a given park.

But noise, that's different. If you like getting to actually see critters up in the mountains, you don't want the (admittedly badass) V8 rumble that most converted 60s seem to produce. Granted, a factory-style exhaust will make a V8 fairly quiet, but a 2F with an equivalent quality exhaust and properly adjusted valves is going to be quieter nine times out of ten.

Now, the spaghetti mess, I totally agree with. That's why I desmogged. And, y'know what? If I was in a place with emissions testing, I probably would have considered a V8 swap, or a diesel (neither of which I could have afforded).

And the automatic transmission...that's a whole different kettle of fish. I personally hate driving an automatic, even though it *is* easier offroad. If I did a V8 swap, it would be pushing an NV4500 or H55, and even with the low first gear on those, the V8 is still going to have trouble pushing you along at really low RPMs compared to a 2F in front of the same transmission.

If you're using higher-performance V8s like a ramjet (or anything else that puts out considerably more horsepower than the 350s/5.3s/etc. in suburbans/pickups), you should start looking at the torque/horsepower numbers for things like 2FE builds.

The garden-variety 2FE actually puts out more torque and horsepower than a 'regular' TBI 350, based on the dyno numbers somebody got. I think it was 135 RWHP at 3200 rpms, which is 180+ horsepower at the crank. At 3200 rpms, a TBI 350 should be putting out around 170.

Torque was something like 225 at the rear wheels, for about 300 at the crank...at 1600 rpms. A TBI 350 doesn't get to 300 ft/lbs until like 2800 rpms.

But this is all a bit off-topic. I guess what I'm saying is, it's not as cut-and-dry you guys who prefer V8s say it is. There are obvious benefits, but there are some drawbacks beyond the large pricetag for a good V8 swap.

 

[dcoy]

It seems cost is the limiting factor for most people in that why they choose to use a v8 rather than better more efficient engines.

Really? My conversion was anything but cheap. True, I didn't know about Proffitts and their cool diesel conversions at the time but a basically brand new Vortec was and still is, I believe, in many circles, a valid, up to date upgrade, clearly more powerful and efficient than the 2F that would barely get me up the mountain without downshifting like crazy.

 

[Kurtis]

Now, hold on. There's a difference between air pollution and noise pollution. Every rig is going to put out exhaust, but unless it's a diesel with a huge amount of blowby, it's going to take a lot more than one rig to do much to the air in a given park.

But noise, that's different. If you like getting to actually see critters up in the mountains, you don't want the (admittedly badass) V8 rumble that most converted 60s seem to produce. Granted, a factory-style exhaust will make a V8 fairly quiet, but a 2F with an equivalent quality exhaust and properly adjusted valves is going to be quieter nine times out of ten.

Now, the spaghetti mess, I totally agree with. That's why I desmogged. And, y'know what? If I was in a place with emissions testing, I probably would have considered a V8 swap, or a diesel (neither of which I could have afforded).

And the automatic transmission...that's a whole different kettle of fish. I personally hate driving an automatic, even though it *is* easier offroad. If I did a V8 swap, it would be pushing an NV4500 or H55, and even with the low first gear on those, the V8 is still going to have trouble pushing you along at really low RPMs compared to a 2F in front of the same transmission.

If you're using higher-performance V8s like a ramjet (or anything else that puts out considerably more horsepower than the 350s/5.3s/etc. in suburbans/pickups), you should start looking at the torque/horsepower numbers for things like 2FE builds.

The garden-variety 2FE actually puts out more torque and horsepower than a 'regular' TBI 350, based on the dyno numbers somebody got. I think it was 135 RWHP at 3200 rpms, which is 180+ horsepower at the crank. At 3200 rpms, a TBI 350 should be putting out around 170.

Torque was something like 225 at the rear wheels, for about 300 at the crank...at 1600 rpms. A TBI 350 doesn't get to 300 ft/lbs until like 2800 rpms.

But this is all a bit off-topic. I guess what I'm saying is, it's not as cut-and-dry you guys who prefer V8s say it is. There are obvious benefits, but there are some drawbacks beyond the large pricetag for a good V8 swap.

Even a TBI 350 dynos at 166hp to the rear wheels completely stock. At least all 90s varieties push 200-210 hp and 300 lbs of torque. I have had a 3fe 62 and it is not even close to a tbi 5.7 power wise. Speed on hills is literally 35 mph different with similar gear ratios. 80lbs of torque and a much wider range to use that power makes a huge difference in drive ability.

 

[GeologistFelix]

Even a TBI 350 dynos at 166hp to the rear wheels completely stock. At least all 90s varieties push 200-210 hp and 300 lbs of torque. I have had a 3fe 62 and it is not even close to a tbi 5.7 power wise. Speed on hills is literally 35 mph different with similar gear ratios. 80lbs of torque and a much wider range to use that power makes a huge difference in drive ability.

Big difference between a 3FE and a 2FE.

2FE = 2F block with the fuel injection and better-flowing head of a 3FE. It's basically a stroker made from factory toyota parts. Estimated 180 hp at 3200 rpms and 300 ft/lbs at the crank (135/225 at the rear wheels).

Also, the 200ish horsepower that 350 is putting out is at 4000 rpms, at least based on the factory numbers I looked up. At 3200 rpms, and the same (or a little more) torque as it's turning at 4000, the 350 is only putting out 170 horsepower, which is slightly less than a 2FE.

 

[coolotisdog]

Big difference between a 3FE and a 2FE.

2FE = 2F block with the fuel injection and better-flowing head of a 3FE. It's basically a stroker made from factory toyota parts. Estimated 180 hp at 3200 rpms and 300 ft/lbs at the crank (135/225 at the rear wheels).

Also, the 200ish horsepower that 350 is putting out is at 4000 rpms, at least based on the factory numbers I looked up. At 3200 rpms, and the same (or a little more) torque as it's turning at 4000, the 350 is only putting out 170 horsepower, which is slightly less than a 2FE.

Okay well what is a 2fe putting out at 4000 rpms?

 

[dbleon]

Big difference between a 3FE and a 2FE.

2FE = 2F block with the fuel injection and better-flowing head of a 3FE. It's basically a stroker made from factory toyota parts. Estimated 180 hp at 3200 rpms and 300 ft/lbs at the crank (135/225 at the rear wheels).

Also, the 200ish horsepower that 350 is putting out is at 4000 rpms, at least based on the factory numbers I looked up. At 3200 rpms, and the same (or a little more) torque as it's turning at 4000, the 350 is only putting out 170 horsepower, which is slightly less than a 2FE.

Dude, have you actually ever driven a v8 FJ60??

I would strongly suggest doing so prior to making any claims about how much better the 2f is. I think you are sorely mistaken.

I have owned both, driven both, etc... and can say without an ounce of hesitation that the v8 does everything better.

Just to re-iterate what others have said, the 2f is based on the old chevy I6.

On a similar note, the GM 350 has one of the longest production runs of any engine in the world and has an extremely good track record in terms if reliability and longevity... so your statements regarding the 2F being far more durable/reliable are mute points.

cheers

 

[GeologistFelix]

Okay well what is a 2fe putting out at 4000 rpms?

Less than your 454!

In all seriousness though, I don't think they dyno'd it that high, and it was a build optimized for low-end torque. I would guess that, unless they balanced the rods and stuff, the 2FE wouldn't be all that happy at 4k. The 2F, which it has the whole bottom end of, apparently gets some really bad vibrations above 3700.

Point is, unless you're going up those mountain pass freeways at 4000 rpms (which you really shouldn't need to, with a V8, right?), you won't ever really enjoy any benefits from that higher horsepower at the high end. The 2FE is going to have more seat-of-pants acceleration than the TBI 350 for everything south of maybe 3500 rpms, and it's a considerably easier swap if you're not good friends with a welder and a machinist. Plus, it'll use way less gas at idle (no replacement for displacement!) and will be way better at lugging at low RPMs.

Also, I never said the 2F is better than a V8. Mine makes me want to scream when I'm trying to get up to freeway speeds, or when I'm on hills. I, however, don't think it's fair to call it a bad engine. It's friggin' solid. Anything that goes 300k miles without needing anything more than oil changes, a thermostat or two, and plugs can be slow if it wants to. It's certainly a plus that it can pull like a tractor.

But, V8s are awesome. I admit that. I'd take one if someone wanted to install one in my 60 for free. I'm sure I'd love having a 5.3. However, for where I am right now (a college student who goes wheeling and camping on occasion, with little to no budget), a V8 swap seems like a crazy amount to spend for what would, more than likely, just get me speeding tickets.

 

[nuclearlemon]

If I want to go fast I drive my outback!

screw that...real toyota people do it in a 22r

 

[nuclearlemon]

You have to remember, I come from Kalifornia ... They put red stop lights at the END of the on ramp!!

more proof kalifornia sucks

 

[Conkhi]

Really? My conversion was anything but cheap. True, I didn't know about Proffitts and their cool diesel conversions at the time but a basically brand new Vortec was and still is, I believe, in many circles, a valid, up to date upgrade, clearly more powerful and efficient than the 2F that would barely get me up the mountain without downshifting like crazy.

BD-turnkey engines are something like this as of my 2011 info
5.3L Stock - $1995
5.3L w/ Z06 Cam - $2600
6.0L LQ4 Stock - $2800
6.0L LQ4 w/ Z06 Cam - $3400
6.0L LQ9 Stock - $3800

plus you will need 1-3K for a transmission
and 1-2k for random parts

now compare that to a more efficient qsb 4.5 engine
6-15K engine
2-3k for custom sae 3 to chevy pate
transmission 1-3K

So from my math which is probably off vortec conversion is 5-7k for parts only while a qsb 4.5 will be 9-21k for parts only I think a v8 conversion would are better when people stick 14bolts under there as well. I don't know what you spent for your vortec conversion but I am sure it is less than a good cummins mind you I am sure the old bt4 would be much cheaper but those typically get sold as soon as the builder is finished for some reason or another. So I still think v8 conversions are done for simplicity and cost to performance rather than torque to fuel efficiency.

 

[nuclearlemon]

wtf buys a new turnkey engine?! i apparently need your income. i buy scrapyard motors.

 

[Elbert]

The fun factor is the intangible reason I have a 5.7 ....

It made the truck more fun to drive, once you get over the swap gremlins.

I could care less if someone wants to keep their 2F, swap in a 4bt, or whatever... somethings are done for the challenge and some for fun, and some are $$ driven etc. About the only swaps that seem to be crazy to me...is anyone that chases MPG in a LC... Hell I would spend 2K to buy a rat-trap econo-box DD before I spent any money on a LC chasing fuel mileage.

 

[klinetime574]

Junked cars/suvs/trucks with V8's are the way to go for conversions. Cheaper and you can get miscellaneous accessories.

Another note: 2F's can do 4000rpm. I do it often.

Elevation is a huge factor. My set-up would probably suck on long grades. But I'm in Texas. Flatter than a pancake. You guys with grades to climb need to gear up appropriately. 4.11's with 33's, a good tune, less weight the better, etc.

My 2F makes me smile every time I turn the key or pop the hood. No doubt a V8 would out-perform it in some categories, but I'm okay with that.

 

[cult45]

I can't believe no one's mentioned the real reason V8 swaps are done: the sound of twin pipes

Don't deny it..

 

[lehiguy]

The only people who think 2Fs are better in a 60 than a 350 (or any decent SBC) are those who still have a 2F. Having been on both sides of fence, and for long periods of time, there is absolutely nothing about the 2F that makes me want to but it back in. I say good riddance to slow gas hog and welcome to triple the HP, double the torque and better mileage. But to each his own...

 

[rockrod]

Let me know when your 6 cylinder moves a cruiser like this and then we might take you seriously.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EHfva7QkSe4

BTW, this was the first test drive after putting it back together. It moves out a good bit faster than this now.