Slipping in snow/ice on Toyo OC AT III tires - any suggestions? (2 Viewers)

[Grumvee]

Hi folks —

We ski a lot in the western Sierras in California, and so are driving in our fair share of snowy and icy conditions.

Vehicle is 2011 LX on Toyo Open Country AT III LT285/70R17 tires. They get 8.7 on Tire Rack for snow/ice performance.

I feel I get less grip and therefore slide more than other vehicles. I really noticed it today. Conditions were extreme: packed snow that was as slick as ice. My vehicle was sliding while others were not, including minivans and cars on all weather tires.

Air pressure was about 31 PSI. I could of course air down to get more traction, but feel I should get better performance than I am at near factory pressures. Vehicle was moderately laden: two adults, two kids, and ski gear.

The Toyos have 25k miles on them and lots of tread left (see pics).

Any thoughts?

Thx!

GRUMVEE

 

[krice118]

Following. I have the same tires in 35x 11.50 and was sliding in cold weather and rainy conditions - hard braking and turning

 

[DrDuc]

3Peak tires, such an syour Toyos, offer good forward traction, but are not rated as offering the sort of improved stopping or turning performance that you get with a true snow/ice tire.

 

[MrM]

GRUMVEE, I realize this probably doesn't help much but my 2010 had Falken AT3Ws on it when I got it and they sucked on snow and ice. I switched them out with General AT3s and they are MUCH better . My WIFEs 07 T4R is on its second set of Duratracs, get over 50 thou with regular rotations, I can honestly say that they are the best tires going all the way around. As soon as GY offers the new Duratrac RT in LT285/65 r18, I plan on stepping up for those. We live in the foothills above Denver and see our fair share of sketchy roads, actually they are better than what I grew up with in Chi Town, so I too need good traction in the winter . Good luck on your search for answers. Mifch

 

[nautiquelover]

Defender LTX M/S2 - that’ll help fix your problem.

 

[04UZJ100]

Run snow tires or go all out and run studded tires like I do.

 

[EverywhereBear]

I run the same tires you have and ran a set of KO2s before the Toyos. However I switch to a dedicated set of winter tires (Blizzaks) in the winter. In extreme winter conditions a dedicted winter tire makes a difference.

 

[Grumvee]

@nautiquelover - Thx for the suggestion.

But I do a lot of off-roading in the non-winter months, so I'm looking for one all around tire, if at all possible:
- Offroad
- Road
- Snow

Though I suppose I could run winter tires in the winter.

 

[Grumvee]

@Bawa and @04UZJ100 - curious, what size snow tires do you run on an LX?

My rims are 17"

Thx!

 

[04UZJ100]

@Bawa and @04UZJ100 - curious, what size snow tires do you run on an LX?

My rims are 17"

Thx!

275/55/20 Hakka 9 Studded Tires.

It's like cheating.

 

[TheIcemanCometh]

Looking at the tires I do not see many sipes which is what really helps improve traction. I am surprised they got the the 3Peak rating. That said, one should understand what the 3P means on a tire.

• Testing measures a tire's acceleration traction on medium-packed snow only. Braking and turning on snow, along with ice traction are not components of the test.

Though the tires only have 25k on them how old are they? I see a fair amount of cracking. With age tire rubber dries out and becomes stiffer, leading to cracking. As such, I am wondering if their life in Bay Area has aged them more than expected thus their winter performance is degraded????

 

[Grumvee]

@TheIcemanCometh - The tires were installed about 2.5 years ago.

I can't find the date code tonight (will look again tomorrow in daylight) ... but I usually check those before taking delivery, so I think they should be reasonably close to ~3 years old.

 

[turbo8]

When did you feel the slipping? Accelerating, braking, turning, or all?
Did you lock the center diff? If not, was your traction control going crazy while slipping all over the place?

 

[Grumvee]

@turbo8 - The annoying slipping actually occurred at super low speeds, crawling in the traffic line heading into the ski hill.

Slipping mostly upon braking and trying to turn ... the vehicle wouldn't stop. I felt neither the antilock brakes nor the traction control. And no, I did not lock the center diff ... though I did try running in 4LO at one point, to see if that might help by having more constant/controlled torque.

 

[eatSleepWoof]

No A/T tire will deliver the performance of a quality winter tire, especially so on a heavy vehicle that wants to keep going straight (momentum).

Get quality winter tires. Get studded ones if you want even better grip, especially on ice.

A/Ts like your Coopers are great for snow-covered trails, but they are not as great as proper winter tires on roads.

 

[hoser]

Could try increasing the pressure to dig in versus deep snow conditions when you want to float. Also, when did you check pressure? At sea level? Adding siping could help too.

 

[NYC570]

@turbo8 - The annoying slipping actually occurred at super low speeds, crawling in the traffic line heading into the ski hill.

Slipping mostly upon braking and trying to turn ... the vehicle wouldn't stop. I felt neither the antilock brakes nor the traction control. And no, I did not lock the center diff ... though I did try running in 4LO at one point, to see if that might help by having more constant/controlled torque.

This is weird. You should've felt and heard the nannies come on when you were slipping.

 

[40Man]

The 3 Peak symbol is not indicative of much. Basically a tire has x% better traction than a summer radial.

I have the Toyos now and they are far worse in icy conditions than my P rated Falken AT3Ws (have a different compound than the LT). I have also run grabbers and they are great for an AT in snow and ice. Duratracs are good too but wear poorly. Cooper AT3 are also decent, but they never had them 3 peak rated.

The worst ice traction AT I have had was the KO2, they are great offroad and wear great, but keep them off ice.

Over the past 20 years I have averaged at least 30 days skiing a year, many in poor road conditions. You can get by with most tires if you slow for conditions, but some tires are much more sure footed.

Consumers deserve a better indicator for wimter traction. Maybe a 10 point system, where the haakas and blizzaks are getting the higher 9/10, dedicated winters generally getting 6-10 based on performance and ats are in the 1-5 range based on quantifiable data. As it stands now, every AT would likely qualify for the 3 peak symbol if they submit it for testing and pay the fees.

 

[trailbreaker9413]

Last winter, I drove between Bend and Ontario, OR, through the winter storm that shut the country down just before Christmas. I was in my '94 4Runner with Toyo Open Country AT III's on it (31/10.5 R15) that were made in Japan*. My outside temp gage told me it was 17-21 degrees and it was RAINING, instantly freezing on my windshield. I had the defrost on full blast, wipers on high, and could only keep the bottom half of the windshield de-iced (and I still had to stop about every 30 minutes to scrape ice). When I did get out of the car to chip off the windshield, there was probably 2-3 inches of ice on the road, and it was consistently covered in rain. I might as well have been driving on a hockey rink.

The Toyo Open Country AT III's performed confidently in those conditions, delivering on that three peak rating when I needed them to a superb degree. I drove in 4x4 around 40 MPH for that whole 260 mile stretch. With stops included, it was an unrelenting 7 hours, and I never lost control once. I've spent a lot of time driving in the PNW winters, and this was the most intense driving I have ever encountered. As an aside, it was also best gas mileage I ever tracked at 22 MPG (I average 17 highway).

So if the Toyo AT III did that well for me, why does it suck for you in your LX? I purchased my 2013 LC in March 2023, and now that I've driven it for nearly a year, I can tell you that weight awareness was my most challenging adjustment in driving style. In other words, ask me how I know that my seat belt auto-tighten feature still works during hard breaking. As you had mentioned in another post above, the LC handling in winter conditions is worst at low speeds. This has been my experience as well (i.e., coming to a complete stop, especially when pointed down hill). As best I can tell, shear weight is to blame, and the numbers seem to support my gut feeling: The curb weight on a 1994 4Runner 4x4 comes in at around 4,100 lbs, while the 2013 LC is around 5,700 lbs. For perspective, that means the LC weighs 40% more than the 4Runner, an extra 1,600 lbs. Now, I've towed about 1,600 lbs. of gravel in the 4Runner in an unbraked trailer, and I can tell you that there's no way in hell I would drive that setup in winter conditions of any kind. All that to say the weight difference between the two vehicles is significant.

As a bit of opportune real-world testing of this thesis, I just drove the 4Runner and the LC over the same icy backroad pass about a week ago, and the LC would not come to a full stop going down the same icy hill that the 4Runner was able to stop on (though the LC was able to slow and I always felt like I had steering control). And it's not that I have bad tires on the LC; quite the opposite in fact. My LC has Michelin Defender LTX MS's, which are shown to have far superior at stoping on snow/ice compared to the Toyo Open Country AT IIIs in this Tyre Review's comparison video: Based on what I can see in my garage, the Michelin has around 2x the tread siping compared to the Toyo.

So then, what is to be done? Because of the generally mild winters where I live, I didn't see the point in buying a set of dedicated snow tires, as the trade-offs for a couple bad days traveling just isn't worth it here. My solution was to purchase a set of SCC Peerless Super Z6 cable chains (Model SZ451 for stock 285/60R18 tire size**) for use ON REAR WHEELS ONLY*** when conditions really got bad.

I actually had the opportunity to test these chains out a couple days ago during a Christmas trip on a very steep backroad incline that had packed snow on top of ice, which makes for a very slick combo. Slowing to a stop coming down was no longer a problem once I put the chains on, as compared to coming down the pass I had driven just a couple days prior. I looked back at the tracks and could easily see that the chains bit through the snow pack and into the ice. The chains were very easy to put on (with the help from an ice scraper to get them behind the tire) and even easier to remove: After three days of putting them on and taking them off every day, I could do either in about 10 minutes. I can say with absolute confidence that the 10 minutes was worth keeping my expensive 3 ton LC full up with my family from sliding off one of the many turns coming down hill.

If you need traction at slow speeds on high grade for a limited time (i.e., going up and down a ski hill), I couldn't recommend a set of chains more highly. If you frequent or live in snowy/icy areas, a set of winter tires will suit you much better, as chains limit speeds to 30 MPH at best. And, if you go back to that Tyre Review video I mentioned, you'll see that the dedicated Michelin snow tire absolutely demolished every other AT tire in the lineup, demonstrating once again that an AT tire is indeed a jack of all trades but master of none (yet I still love their versatility and will continue to run them). I hope you're able to find something that works for you, as this LC is otherwise an absolute powerhouse in other winter conditions (ironically, the weight of the LC is a huge advantage when busting through uneven trail or heaves/mounds on the highway).

* This thread by gaijin details a recall of Toyo tires manufactured in Serbia. If you run the relevant tire size affected by the recall, check your tires to see if they are made in Japan (the tires on my 4Runner clearly state "Made in Japan"). The recall was for sidewall failure, but I wouldn't be surprised if compound chemistry was also off at that plant which would affect tire grip.

** SCC Peerless also makes a Super Z LT/SUV Model ZT751 for the same 285/60R18 tire that I might have purchased instead (if I initially knew I would be putting chains on the rear only), as I assume they are a bit thicker than the Super Z6. I would have rather had SCC's AutoTrac chains (which are actual chains), but they don't make them in a size that fits the 285/60R18. Maybe they will someday...

*** The owner's manual for my 2013 LC states that chains should ONLY be used on the rear, not the front (pg. 312, or section 2-5: Driving Information to help LX owners with the reference). As much as I wanted to put chain on all 4 wheels (on an AWD vehicle, that just makes sense), chains on just the rear did what I expect chains to do: Provide bite for stopping in icy conditions. According to my driveway test, the Super Z6 SZ451's will clear the suspension components on the front of the LC, including the KDSS cylinder. However, the edge of the chain will drag across the supporting knuckle going into the wheel. It appears that you could drive with these chains on all 4 wheels for a limited distance (i.e., a hill climb or something similar), as the knuckle is smooth and doesn't appear that it could snag the chain as it drags across; however, running them on all 4 tires over any distance will repeatedly knock the metal clasps against the knuckle which will wear out the knuckle and the clasps, likely leading to a catastrophic failure of one or both given enough time.

 

[NYC570]

OP should've gone with the passenger version of the Toyos ATIIIs. They have tighter packed lugs, a lot more siping and more silica in the compound.