S/C running ethanol questions . . . (1 Viewer)

landtank

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I'm a little surprised at the cricket response. Surely @scottryana you can appreciate the effort in reverse engineering the ECU programming and engineering a tuned response.

This along with my fan clutch design lays the ground work for actually taking advantage of intercooling and meth injection with a smaller pulley.
 
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Sorry, yeah Rick this is awesome and a great effort!! I have been working 14 hour night shifts at the hospital and just haven't been on mud as much as I used to be able to be.

But this is absolutely great work and something that was needed. I really like the idea of meth injection for the SC guys who are running a smaller pulley for the cooling and detonation resistance. Keep up the good work!


I'm a little surprised at the cricket response. Surely @scottryana you can appreciate the effort in reverse engineering the ECU programming and engineering a tuned response.

This along with my fan clutch design lays the ground work for actually taking advantage of intercooling and meth injection with a smaller pulley.
 
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Got a S/C all ordered up this morning. Probably have it by the end of the week :) now I think it'd be best if I wrap my headers to keep as much heat as possible away from the S/C.
 

jamesurq

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Somehow I thought this thread dealt with real ethanol gas rather than just gas with some ethanol in it. We have E85 at a lot of pumps here - is anyone tuning their boosted 1FZ based on E85?
 

inkpot

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Got a S/C all ordered up this morning. Probably have it by the end of the week :) now I think it'd be best if I wrap my headers to keep as much heat as possible away from the S/C.

A lot of different things have been tried to reduce heat for the S/C. Other than an I/C, most have little to no effect ( less than 10 degrees ) when measured downstream of the pump. IIRC, additional shielding and/or wraps were not quite as good as ceramic coating the exhaust inside and out. Depending on the climate your in, wraps can contribute to rust/corrosion.
 
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A lot of different things have been tried to reduce heat for the S/C. Other than an I/C, most have little to no effect ( less than 10 degrees ) when measured downstream of the pump. IIRC, additional shielding and/or wraps were not quite as good as ceramic coating the exhaust inside and out. Depending on the climate your in, wraps can contribute to rust/corrosion.

Yeah, I'm going to replicate a top mount I/C(air to air) set up I saw here w/ a WRX hood scoop and maybe some venting on the sides of the hood.
 
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tuning it how?

E85 requires roughly 30% more fuel than pump gas, without a way to actually tune the ECU it would be a crap shoot at best.

And my setup on pump gas produces more than enough torque to be scared for the stock rods/pistons/trans adding E85, the extra fuel, timing and torque would also be a time bomb unless you did a lot of work beefing things up.

Somehow I thought this thread dealt with real ethanol gas rather than just gas with some ethanol in it. We have E85 at a lot of pumps here - is anyone tuning their boosted 1FZ based on E85?
 

NLXTACY

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A lot of different things have been tried to reduce heat for the S/C. Other than an I/C, most have little to no effect ( less than 10 degrees ) when measured downstream of the pump. IIRC, additional shielding and/or wraps were not quite as good as ceramic coating the exhaust inside and out. Depending on the climate your in, wraps can contribute to rust/corrosion.

Yup. Back in my Camaro days, heat wrap meant I had to replace exhaust more often due to trapped moisture. I have my air box shielded which helps until heat soak fully takes over. I have my exhaust manifolds and heat shields both ceramic coated. I definitely noticed a change there.
 

inkpot

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I have not taken the time to try it yet, but I am thinking of doubling up on the heat shields to see if it helps any. I did that on the floor over the exhaust and it made a big difference.
 

Iceaxe

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nlxtacy, scottryana, as you guys know, I run a 97 FZJ with a TRD SC with minimized pulley size- I run pressures as high as 7 PSI. Timing advanced only just so far as not to have detonation / knock. I've had a helluva challenge with heat (195-220 deg F) basically taking away all the gains I had with installing the SC in the first place. I did install meth and agree with the observation it does little. No, I haven't tried to run distilled water through the meth injection system to help with cooling the engine.

What I HAVE decided to do in the next month is the following:
  • air to air IC installation in the passenger side of the engine bay, where we will be moving the windshield washer reservoir to the other side of the bay.
  • welding plates into the passenger side bay and insulating the space to allow for maximal cooling via the IC.
  • punching vents into the hood to facilitate heat escape while on the trail.
  • I *may* remove the meth kit, depending on how well the IC performs.
 
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Ok you are confusing 2 different issues. Methanol injection is to lower intake air temp and to provide detonation resistance it will do little to nothing for your coolant temp. If you are having a coolant temp issue you need to resolve that before you start worrying about your air intake temps.


What have you done to track down your coolant temp issue? Have you checked the fan clutch? Changed the radiator? Cleaned out the air conditioner condenser? Checked your exhaust for excessive back pressure? Checked your O2 sensors? Done a sufficiently good job at flushing the cooling system to get any sediment, and build up out?

The above things are what I would do way before I made any changes to your induction system. And while you are doing that I would set all timing settings back to factory defaults.

Once you have your coolant temp under control, you can then start to worry about your air intake temps. Like I said with the water meth, I can guarantee it does do a lot for what it was designed to do, but it was not intended to lower coolant temps, only IAT.
 

Iceaxe

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Right, sorry I wasn't clear- the engine is overheating in the summer as a direct result of the SC and pressurization of the intake, which relates to PV= nRT. Particularly when doing long climbs.

Yes, agree with what you've stated re: checking the coolant side of things, however those issues have been reviewed / addressed. I have an orange fan clutch, new radiator with new coolant, exhaust ok, o2 sensors ok.
 
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No sorry that is not how that works.... The ideal gas law does show an increase in intake air temps, intake air temps are not directly relatable to coolant temp. The only thing warmer intake air temps would do would lead to detonation. If you are having detonation it is possible that the computer would dial back timing causing in increase in engine temps. But if you are having detonation you would have CEL's not to mention it is very unlikely your IAT's are that warm if you are properly using your water/meth injection. I see more than a 50 degree temp drop in intake air temps using water/meth injection.

It is possible that you have an air flow issue after adding the supercharger but many others have superchargers and they are not having issues. Including NLXTACY once he figured out his problem. You have a cooling system issue not a forced induction issue. I can appreciate finding them can be difficult, hell it took Joey what 2 years and a 200 page long thread on Mud, but this has nothing to do with the ideal gas law and coolant temps. Adding air that is maybe 40c hotter to a cylinder that is going to reach 1200 degrees is going to effect cooling about like spitting in the ocean. Again it might effect detonation and that might be your problem but good gas, water/meth injection correctly setup and it would be almost impossible to see detonation on what is maybe 7psi from the TRD SCr..
 

Iceaxe

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Ok, interesting.... I'm using the UltraGauge, and I thought the temp readings were from the IAT (?) Those readings clearly show high temps and coincident loss of engine power when you get above 190 or so....

So, what's the value of an IC then? I've seen many posts here on Mud talking about improvements in the rig's ability to climb mountain passes in the summer thanks to the IC....?

Re: CELs, no not seeing any codes at all... and no BBs in a tin can sound either...
 

NLXTACY

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There were three things going ultimately:

1. My IATs were up to 180deg. This is likely caused from all the crap under my hood and reduced airflow. Installing the snorkel solved this issue by reducing IATs to within 10deg of ambient.

2. Had a hidden exhaust leak that was pointed right at OS2 which helped put me into a permanent lean burn.

3. I had a defective Toyota fan clutch right out of the box but I didn't know until I took it back out to test.


And PS- what was the final issue with Joey's setup?

Joey can answer better than I can likely, but I believe it was an exhaust leak pre/post O2 sensor.

@NLXTACY spit the truth....
 

Iceaxe

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There were three things going ultimately:

1. My IATs were up to 180deg. This is likely caused from all the crap under my hood and reduced airflow. Installing the snorkel solved this issue by reducing IATs to within 10deg of ambient.

2. Had a hidden exhaust leak that was pointed right at OS2 which helped put me into a permanent lean burn.

3. I had a defective Toyota fan clutch right out of the box but I didn't know until I took it back out to test.

Thanks for sharing Joey. We need a therapy group for SC'ers... I did chat with my colleague (Dr. Smash) about putting in a snorkel... it's a complicated discussion in the context of having an IC core sitting on the passenger side engine compartment... Did you ever go meth on your rig? If you did, did you notice improvements in your ECU *not* pulling your timing?
 

NLXTACY

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Thanks for sharing Joey. We need a therapy group for SC'ers... I did chat with my colleague (Dr. Smash) about putting in a snorkel... it's a complicated discussion in the context of having an IC core sitting on the passenger side engine compartment... Did you ever go meth on your rig? If you did, did you notice improvements in your ECU *not* pulling your timing?

No meth, no 7th injector, no IC, no smaller pulley. At least...not yet ;)
 
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There were three things going ultimately:

1. My IATs were up to 180deg. This is likely caused from all the crap under my hood and reduced airflow. Installing the snorkel solved this issue by reducing IATs to within 10deg of ambient.

3. I had a defective Toyota fan clutch right out of the box but I didn't know until I took it back out to test.


Dorkel really helps with IAT and really reduce the amount of dirt get into the filter. For anyone with forced induction it should be a requirement. This mod could have same effect as meth injection except it won't run out. I helped install the dorkel on NLXACY's rig and rode in it when then the IAT was 160-180 range and after dorkel it dropped to 120-130 at same ambient temp. That's like having meth injection on the entire time!


There have been multiple mud members with brand new aisin or Toyota factory fan clutch that had little to no silicon fluid. Now summer is around the corner check your fan clutch!!! With any kind of forced induction the problem is only amplified.


Queue the 100 plus threads within next 3 months about overheating! Hahaha
 
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