concretejungle said:
Not saying John is, but saying it is PITA to install and his truck is now a welded together mess does need some explanation.
ROCK PICS: 4WD Toyota Owner/Man-A-Fre drop bracket kit
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Not saying John is, but saying it is PITA to install and his truck is now a welded together mess does need some explanation.
All the suspension bits I have gotten from Mr Slee have had no installation issues, including a front control arm that I assisted (kinda, anyway. I took the broken one out and Robbie did most of the going back togther part 
) installing, on the trail, without the benefit of a hoist or "proper" tools.
) installing, on the trail, without the benefit of a hoist or "proper" tools.concretejungle said:
RIGHT ON...except for one thing....the MAF kit won't work for me either. I do need the ground clearance. I just ran a 4.0+ Saturday.
Dave,
First, I don't see that 4Runner coming close to its sliders. Maybe some other pics capture that rock garden as tougher but seriously, that doesn't look like something that would stop a "standard" OME 850/863 w/35's setup.
Second, again, your own words do not mention hitting your sliders or being in a "deep" enough rock garden that you were on the sliders, frame, xfer, etc. Pics of your 80 on those might clear this up I guess.
Third, I guess I wrote my response based on what I saw in the link you posted and that pic of the 4Runner. I just don't think you quite "tested" MAF's brackets in a way that lets the consumer determine how those measure up to the other options out there - J-springs w/cc, LandTanks or Slee's caster plates, Slee's front control arms, etc.
Basically you show what pretty much any 80 that has the "heavy" lift from OME has been able to do for nearly a decade
But then again, I wasn't there so I don't want to dismiss that it was actually a lot more challenging than all that. Sorry to be so gruff, cause I honestly commend you for your efforts, testing products and trying to provide a product (magazine) for a small base.
Bring your truck to Rubicon, Dusy-Ershim, Moab and points east if you can
Mike
First, I don't see that 4Runner coming close to its sliders. Maybe some other pics capture that rock garden as tougher but seriously, that doesn't look like something that would stop a "standard" OME 850/863 w/35's setup.
Second, again, your own words do not mention hitting your sliders or being in a "deep" enough rock garden that you were on the sliders, frame, xfer, etc. Pics of your 80 on those might clear this up I guess.
Third, I guess I wrote my response based on what I saw in the link you posted and that pic of the 4Runner. I just don't think you quite "tested" MAF's brackets in a way that lets the consumer determine how those measure up to the other options out there - J-springs w/cc, LandTanks or Slee's caster plates, Slee's front control arms, etc.
Basically you show what pretty much any 80 that has the "heavy" lift from OME has been able to do for nearly a decade
But then again, I wasn't there so I don't want to dismiss that it was actually a lot more challenging than all that. Sorry to be so gruff, cause I honestly commend you for your efforts, testing products and trying to provide a product (magazine) for a small base.
Bring your truck to Rubicon, Dusy-Ershim, Moab and points east if you can
Mike
4WD Toyota Owner Magazine said:Clown, z80:
Step one: Reread first post, fourth paragraph.
Step two: See attached pic of 4Runini in first post showing the rocks referenced in Step One
Step three: Wonder why you wrote your questions when the photo and pics were posted already.
Dave
sleeoffroad said:
I am bad sometimes at getting my point out. Very sorry.
I am VERY confident in the kit on my Lexus. It's the weld-in Slee kit except I got OME J's. If I DIDN'T trust Slee's stuff I'd a ripped out the J's and went like my old '93. It's done now and I'm happy.
My point is that I would prefer to keep ALL components STOCK except for springs and shocks. Because my truck had vibrations that didn't work out. So, compare a spring and shock change to what I've done and that equals a PITA.
Thank god it's done!
I have tried my best to not comment on the MAF setup but I just can't imagine running something like that. I personally would just go with a set of heavies, CC bushings and call it a day before I would have all that hanging underneath my truck.
I realize you could run a larger tire giving more clearance under the diff, but I could do with a little less there to have better breakover clearance. With a conventional lift there's no major hang points, but the MAF setup has that deep notch between the rear mount for the front control arm and the start of the rear drop brackets. If you got hung up in the notch it would be hard for the truck to drag itself over that (especially in reverse).
I understand that there's different wheeling styles, but there's always times we get in over our heads and when this happens I want to have as good a setup as possible.
Not trying to bash, just my unsolicited opinion
I realize you could run a larger tire giving more clearance under the diff, but I could do with a little less there to have better breakover clearance. With a conventional lift there's no major hang points, but the MAF setup has that deep notch between the rear mount for the front control arm and the start of the rear drop brackets. If you got hung up in the notch it would be hard for the truck to drag itself over that (especially in reverse).
I understand that there's different wheeling styles, but there's always times we get in over our heads and when this happens I want to have as good a setup as possible.
Not trying to bash, just my unsolicited opinion
Shotts, this looks like another great example of not building to the truck but building to desire.
This might seem like hindsight to you but I've been posting for months that you first need to evaluate your truck's own mechanics and then move forward with the build to avoid all the driveline and handling issues. Just pulling some lift height out of your arse and running with it will get you in trouble.
On lifts greater than a couple of inches the target is 2*-4* caster and 0* pinion angle because a DC shaft is needed. What the resulting height is depends on your specific truck and the mechanics within it.
Anyone thinking a 1 kit fits all is dilusional.
Christo has done his best to offer whatever is needed to make a lift work with any vehicle. Some trucks need more of it than others. Some trucks need different parts than others.
But it basically comes down to the choice of what springs are installed. Choose a spring that matches your application and truck and things are pretty easy. Choose the wrong spring and things can get nasty real fast.
Lifting a truck isn't so much an art but a science. The science has been figured out by some very smart people a while ago and we need to be dumb enough to do what they say.
This might seem like hindsight to you but I've been posting for months that you first need to evaluate your truck's own mechanics and then move forward with the build to avoid all the driveline and handling issues. Just pulling some lift height out of your arse and running with it will get you in trouble.
On lifts greater than a couple of inches the target is 2*-4* caster and 0* pinion angle because a DC shaft is needed. What the resulting height is depends on your specific truck and the mechanics within it.
Anyone thinking a 1 kit fits all is dilusional.
Christo has done his best to offer whatever is needed to make a lift work with any vehicle. Some trucks need more of it than others. Some trucks need different parts than others.
But it basically comes down to the choice of what springs are installed. Choose a spring that matches your application and truck and things are pretty easy. Choose the wrong spring and things can get nasty real fast.
Lifting a truck isn't so much an art but a science. The science has been figured out by some very smart people a while ago and we need to be dumb enough to do what they say.
landtank said:
Well guess what? The very smart people aren't always 100% correct because as you said trucks differ. The expert(s) told my buddy his LX would vibrate with J's and CC. It didn't. He got a 4"+ lift for under $1000 THAT WORKS. He defied the experts. I didn't get that lucky.
Then there's the "forum experts". MANY insisted I get Slee-brand springs. That's insane when my truck isn't loaded and these experts knew it. Even Slee told me his springs were stiffer than J's because his springs are made to handle a loaded truck better. The unloaded LX would have driven like a rock.
Yes Rick. I am a truck building dumb dumb. Just look at my 100.
To use your words, I again "didn't build to the truck, I built to desire".
Reality is the end result. The 100 is a marvel, with RTI scores almost identical to a 3" lifted 80. My Lexus? No better than anybody elses, but man, it turned out awesome thanks to Slee, OME, my mechanic, AND ME...for designing it (even though I designed it "wrong" as some say.
Now, let's get back to MAF?
4WD Toyota Owner Magazine
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- Thread starter
- #49
Clown, if you re-read the post you'll see I say I bashed and hit and had to back out. So not sure whats unclear about that and not showing rocks, etc. But I don't even want to start a discussion on these semantics of words.
Really, and this goes for everyone...I love to wheel and don't give a s#$^ about opinions. Does the MAF kit suck? No. Is it the best? No. Is it for you? Couldn't say. I wheel, and I love it. If something breaks, I pull out the tools and fix or replace or get towed out. I expect that when I go wheeling, that something may break or not work perfectly. But I wheel my junk. I don't expect perfection. I'm here to try new things. If they don't work, I'll quit using them. At this point I am actually enjoying having the MAF on even more because of all the naysayers. I'll be odd man out--but I'll be out there on the trails!
And aside from that man-made rock pile, which the 4Runner struggled through, the MAF-equipped 80 did everything I asked of it. That's enough to satisfy me!
Plus, I AM there testing it. I came right back on Saturday and posted up. I admitted hitting rocks--which, for gods sake, we all knew it would. I've never come on and said, "this MAF kit is the ULTIMATE wheeling kit!" My very first post in the other thread was only showing what had been installed.
I've wheeled Hammers, Moab, Rubico and Paragon, but not Tellico yet. As I've said several times, this 80 is not and will not be a rock crusher. I'm building it for trail running. The Project 1985 4Runner will be our rock monster. Rocks? They're gonna hit the brackets sometimes. One way or another, be it a new line or a winch line, I'll get over it. All part of wheeling--to me.
I'm still waiting on half the fellows here with all these critiques and ardent opinions to post ANY kind of serious rock action photos in their 80s. Post up and let's see what YOU do in YOUR 80. I've shown mine in action. Do YOU wheel in rocks? I've seen Cdan, StuckInGa, Texican, Shotts, Slee and me. Oddly enough, none from you, Clown!
Time to put your money where your mouth is
Enough talk--show us you wheel in serious rocks. if you do!
Dave
Really, and this goes for everyone...I love to wheel and don't give a s#$^ about opinions. Does the MAF kit suck? No. Is it the best? No. Is it for you? Couldn't say. I wheel, and I love it. If something breaks, I pull out the tools and fix or replace or get towed out. I expect that when I go wheeling, that something may break or not work perfectly. But I wheel my junk. I don't expect perfection. I'm here to try new things. If they don't work, I'll quit using them. At this point I am actually enjoying having the MAF on even more because of all the naysayers. I'll be odd man out--but I'll be out there on the trails!
And aside from that man-made rock pile, which the 4Runner struggled through, the MAF-equipped 80 did everything I asked of it. That's enough to satisfy me!
Plus, I AM there testing it. I came right back on Saturday and posted up. I admitted hitting rocks--which, for gods sake, we all knew it would. I've never come on and said, "this MAF kit is the ULTIMATE wheeling kit!" My very first post in the other thread was only showing what had been installed.
I've wheeled Hammers, Moab, Rubico and Paragon, but not Tellico yet. As I've said several times, this 80 is not and will not be a rock crusher. I'm building it for trail running. The Project 1985 4Runner will be our rock monster. Rocks? They're gonna hit the brackets sometimes. One way or another, be it a new line or a winch line, I'll get over it. All part of wheeling--to me.
I'm still waiting on half the fellows here with all these critiques and ardent opinions to post ANY kind of serious rock action photos in their 80s. Post up and let's see what YOU do in YOUR 80. I've shown mine in action. Do YOU wheel in rocks? I've seen Cdan, StuckInGa, Texican, Shotts, Slee and me. Oddly enough, none from you, Clown!
Time to put your money where your mouth is
Enough talk--show us you wheel in serious rocks.
if you do!Dave
The only difficulty with installing the Slee kit ( which is great for us and the wheeling we do ) was getting the old rear shocks off. Having said that, i would however like to see some form of panhard rod lowering bracket with the Slee kit.
TiredIronGRB said:
Ditto... I am tired of hearing about this topic and people even comparing it to the slee 6". I am not trying to give man a fre and there products a bad name, but drop brackets on a lift is like taking a step backwards, your raising the vehicle for more ground clearance and then losing most of the clearance gained with the brackets
... Lift kits with drop brackets or for poser rigs like this good old "yee ha" lets go through a huge mud hole type wheeling...
don't make these capable vehicles look like posers......
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Shotts, put all those trucks in your examples on an alignment rack. Regardless of how they vibrate if they are not within the factory caster spec then they are not a sucessful lift.
ShottsUZJ100 said:
What is in that kit? Also, as Rick mentioned, get the alignment specs and see what it is. Just because it doesn't vibrate doesn't mean it is right. As he mentioned, we try get all trucks back to factory specs. There are a number of variables involved and one can not always do it. Ricks caster plates are pretty slick, but for most people that buy from us those might be a little above their ability to bolt on. That is also the reason we will not install a basic OME 2.5 lift without caster bushings. Some say you do not need them, but the fact is if you raise the vehicles, the caster changes, so it has to be addressed.
Installing J's without addressing the panhards casues misallignment of the axles. Again, we will not do it without addressing it. Individuals chose to ignore this. Ask anyone with a truck lifted with minimal components to drive it, and immediately get back in a stock truck and give you their opinion. Only then will they realise the compromises they have made.
I agree with the rear panhard drop bracket from MAF, but even with that you might still need adjustment. I do not however agree with the front panhard drop. With a dropped pirman arm, yes, or with the steering arm on the otherside lifted yes, but not on it's own.
Agree with you on this. We never advocate using stiff springs just to get extra height. Use the springs for the load they were designed for.
Reality is the end result. The 100 is a marvel, with RTI scores almost identical to a 3" lifted 80. My Lexus? No better than anybody elses, but man, it turned out awesome thanks to Slee, OME, my mechanic, AND ME...for designing it (even though I designed it "wrong" as some say.
We do not have to drag the 100 into this.
Comparing the two is really not going to accomplish anything. Even if done on the same trail. It is about driver and wheeling. You have to know the stregths and weaknesses of your vehicle when wheeling and choose your lines accordingly. Proving that a bracket hits on a rock, when it would not hit if there were no bracket is kinda common sense.
If you wheel a 80, you do not pick lines that FJ40's take. I agree with Dave, go out and wheel the stuff. Also, yes Dave owns a magazine, he was given/bought some suspension stuff. He puts it on his truck and wheels it. That is what the suupplier/ or any sponsor would expect. We all hope for a favourable review and we trust/believe the products we make are the best for their intended purpose. However, I would also hope that Dave / any magazine reviewer would state his honest opinion. That is the ideal case, now advertising $'s etc might change your wording from POS, to XXX but Dave realises that he has a specialty magazine and honest evaluations will get him much futher than sucking up to advertisers and sponsors.
Now, just don't say anything bad about the skidplates from SOF, OK.
If you wheel a 80, you do not pick lines that FJ40's take. I agree with Dave, go out and wheel the stuff. Also, yes Dave owns a magazine, he was given/bought some suspension stuff. He puts it on his truck and wheels it. That is what the suupplier/ or any sponsor would expect. We all hope for a favourable review and we trust/believe the products we make are the best for their intended purpose. However, I would also hope that Dave / any magazine reviewer would state his honest opinion. That is the ideal case, now advertising $'s etc might change your wording from POS, to XXX but Dave realises that he has a specialty magazine and honest evaluations will get him much futher than sucking up to advertisers and sponsors.
Now, just don't say anything bad about the skidplates from SOF, OK.
4WD Toyota Owner Magazine said:I've seen Cdan, StuckInGa, Texican, Shotts, Slee and me. Oddly enough, none from you, Clown!
Time to put your money where your mouth is
Enough talk--show us you wheel in serious rocks.
Talking some good smack for someone who obviously hasn't read any of the older posts in the forum. So no one, other than the folks listed above, wheel their junk?
You may want to do some more reading there sparkie. You're totally new to the 80 wheeling world. Some of us have been wheeling our junk with 36+ tires and breaking s*** on some gnarlies for 4-5 yrs (you know, like back when folks said hey man you can't do that... we'd go and do it anyway). Little things like following 42" equipped rock buggies with our "mall SUVs". So b4 you start talking crap you may want to learn a tad (like reading some of the older posts). Otherwise you are just another newb sqewing some 'tude.
sleeoffroad said:Now, just don't say anything bad about the skidplates from SOF, OK.
I didn't like the color so painted my green b4 I put it on.
sleeoffroad said:
More than enough said. I will add to this with my $0.02: if you get hung up on those brackets, just keep on pounding/working on the obstacle until you get off. If that doesn't work, get out of the truck, get your bottle/high lift jack out, jack up the truck until you get some clearance between the bracket(s) and the rock/obstacle. Then put some rocks under the tire(s) to hold that clearance. Finally drive off
. This is also applicable when you get hung up on your Diff or Pinion and you have rocks both behind and in-front of your both Diffs. This works for me until I get 6" coils and 3 links up front. Oh also, keep an eye on the bracket(s) as you pound/srcape on'em. They will catch minimum rust as you do that abuse. My minimum maint. is to spray anti rust after sanding them with sand papers, just keep the rusts off. It dosen't hurt.
4WD Toyota Owner Magazine
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Riad, Christo, great logical posts and info. When I write the story on the kit, it'll be honest, that's for sure. Anything less would be crazy! I've enjoyed the Man-A-Fre kit so far and will continue to keep testing it, wheeling it, and posting up photos as possible.
Hate to be a spoiler but yes, the SOF skid is great!
(It'll be in the issue after)
A few quick obvious notes: front tow hooks will be removed from ARB bumper after repeated strikes last Saturday.
Gearing must be lowered--still original at this point. Jaws Gear.
Longfield's 80 axles on tap soon.
Slee AC Dryer plate.
Lights.
Midland CB. Firestik II antenna. Ham.
Red/Yellow Optimas on Hellroaring system.
ARB Freezer/Fridge.
And a whole lotta 80-series 'tude!
Damn I love Toyotas! See you in the dirt!
Dave
Hate to be a spoiler but yes, the SOF skid is great!
(It'll be in the issue after)
A few quick obvious notes: front tow hooks will be removed from ARB bumper after repeated strikes last Saturday.
Gearing must be lowered--still original at this point. Jaws Gear.
Longfield's 80 axles on tap soon.
Slee AC Dryer plate.
Lights.
Midland CB. Firestik II antenna. Ham.
Red/Yellow Optimas on Hellroaring system.
ARB Freezer/Fridge.
And a whole lotta 80-series 'tude!
Damn I love Toyotas! See you in the dirt!
Dave
landtank said:
All three are in spec.
The '93 just makes it.
The LX is spot on perfect.
The 100 is spot on perfect.
Sorry Rick.