ROCK PICS: 4WD Toyota Owner/Man-A-Fre drop bracket kit
- Thread starter 4WD Toyota Owner Magazine
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I'm going to go for a recap here.
so what we've established here is that the MAF lift has some drop brackets that are going to scrape in break over situations and might break or get stuck in bad stuff. seems to me we established that possibility in July in Steve-o's early threads on the lift. but we have reestablished it here, with emphasis.
We've also established that the trail dave took the MAF lift on was not particularly hardcore and so not really a test of the theory the brackets will break or get stuck. this is a proposition I thought Dave had conceded, but which we nevertheless have now brought home.
as a result we know little more than we knew in july about the performance of the maf liftin hardcore trails other than the fact that even in moderate trails the MAF bracket will scrape. We probably knew even this in july but it is now confirmed.
we've also established that vendors who prepare products for 80 mudders can expect a rough ride.
meanwhile we have learned that Schotts has had mixed results from his attempts to achieve low budget 4" lifts.
now i think we are discussing whether the maf drop brackets truly return the axle to stock performance anyway based on the fact the position of the axle and wheel relative to the wheel well changes when the pivot point of the lower arms changes and moves away from the frame. so far it seems this could affect rubbing and pinion angle even if caster is correct.
we have also raised the idea of longer control arms on the inboard side of the frame. seems to me 4runners have them and they have frames and toyota logos so it is worth discussing although I have no idea if it works.
so what we've established here is that the MAF lift has some drop brackets that are going to scrape in break over situations and might break or get stuck in bad stuff. seems to me we established that possibility in July in Steve-o's early threads on the lift. but we have reestablished it here, with emphasis.
We've also established that the trail dave took the MAF lift on was not particularly hardcore and so not really a test of the theory the brackets will break or get stuck. this is a proposition I thought Dave had conceded, but which we nevertheless have now brought home.
as a result we know little more than we knew in july about the performance of the maf liftin hardcore trails other than the fact that even in moderate trails the MAF bracket will scrape. We probably knew even this in july but it is now confirmed.
we've also established that vendors who prepare products for 80 mudders can expect a rough ride.
meanwhile we have learned that Schotts has had mixed results from his attempts to achieve low budget 4" lifts.
now i think we are discussing whether the maf drop brackets truly return the axle to stock performance anyway based on the fact the position of the axle and wheel relative to the wheel well changes when the pivot point of the lower arms changes and moves away from the frame. so far it seems this could affect rubbing and pinion angle even if caster is correct.
we have also raised the idea of longer control arms on the inboard side of the frame. seems to me 4runners have them and they have frames and toyota logos so it is worth discussing although I have no idea if it works.
semlin said:
doesn't change pinion angle any more than non-drop.
I thought it changed it less and said that on another thread, and then corrected myself when I looked at my dwgs better. The caster and pinion changes as the suspension cycles the same amount for either option.
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-Spike- said:
no, the arc is the same. It's still has the same radius as stock, and it still goes fore and aft the same about as stock for every degree it rotates. Lifting without dropping the brackets, puts the arm at a greater angle - and it still rotates in an arc with the same radius, but because of the angle it goes forward and back more. If you took it to the ultimate extreme, and the arms were 90 deg. to the frame, they would move almost 100% fore and aft, though the arc would still be the same radius as long as the arms are the same length.
Not that my oppion matters to anyone but me. But here's how I see the options....
At 4"
For best street manners, and good off-road capability until the point you hit some big rocks, drop brackets
For good street manners, and best off-road capability, espcially rocks, no drop brackets, just caster correction.
For the best of both worlds, custom long arms.
At 6"
Flip the arms, and cut and turn the axle for pinnion angle. Get better on road and off road than either of the other options. Don't know what to do in the back.
Beyond 6"
Either portal axles, or custom long arms on top of the axle.
At 4"
For best street manners, and good off-road capability until the point you hit some big rocks, drop brackets
For good street manners, and best off-road capability, espcially rocks, no drop brackets, just caster correction.
For the best of both worlds, custom long arms.
At 6"
Flip the arms, and cut and turn the axle for pinnion angle. Get better on road and off road than either of the other options. Don't know what to do in the back.
Beyond 6"
Either portal axles, or custom long arms on top of the axle.
Let me try again, one more time. I quit after this.
Full compression is defined by the bumpstop. Assuming the bumpstop is the same on both (lifted) vehicles:
Without drop brackets, the control arm, at full suspension compression, is going to be closer to horizontal than the truck equipped with drop brackets, and therefore will be at the furthest forward point in it's arc. The drop-bracket-equipped control arm, at full suspension compression, will be more into the upward travel of it's arc, therefore moving the axle backward in the horizontal plane. I am sure I have not explained this succinctly previously, because it's a fairly simple concept. Again, we're probably talking about fractions of an inch of front-to-back movement, but it's there.
-Spike
Full compression is defined by the bumpstop. Assuming the bumpstop is the same on both (lifted) vehicles:
Without drop brackets, the control arm, at full suspension compression, is going to be closer to horizontal than the truck equipped with drop brackets, and therefore will be at the furthest forward point in it's arc. The drop-bracket-equipped control arm, at full suspension compression, will be more into the upward travel of it's arc, therefore moving the axle backward in the horizontal plane. I am sure I have not explained this succinctly previously, because it's a fairly simple concept. Again, we're probably talking about fractions of an inch of front-to-back movement, but it's there.
-Spike
Walking Eagle said:
I think that most people would agree with this... You summed up 4pgs in 1 post. IMOWIPNEEOBIHTLI (In My Opinion Which Is Probably Not Everybody Elses Opinion, But I Happen To Like It.
.)
Walking Eagle said:
Now your talking...there's no substitue for ground clearence.
-Spike- said:
Spike,
Ya', full compression is defined by the bumpstop. And IF a rig with drop brackets arms go above horizontal, ya', the axle does come back. And IF a rig without drop brackets bottoms out at horrizontal the axle is in the most forward possition. But, IF a a rig without drop brackets bottoms out before it reaches horizontal, it will be back somewhat. 10 deg. above horrizontal and 10 deg below horizontal have the same movement aft. It is a fairly simple concept, and I've explained it and drawn it correctly. What I've also allowed for though, is that I DO NOT KNOW what angle each rests at when bottomed out. And no one has offered up that information. Without knowing how far up or down from horizontal they both are, can't know how forward or backward they are (unless you measured them).
I'd say it's more than a fraction of an inch overall front to back movement. Just look at any of the 6" lifted rigs out there with stock arms and stock brackets. The axle is definately back quite a bit, and will come forward that much as they compress.