Build GW Nugget's Budget Daily Lx450 build

[Nay]

Im learning that balance is more important than flex. So are you telling me restricking the rear to force the front to work more creates better balance?

I know you've seen this thread, but figured I'd link it for the followers here as it is a perfect example of what an unbalanced 80 looks like in the before pics. Tall, tons of shock travel, tire constantly off the ground. And then starting to try to find control arm solutions to re-balance it.

Superior Engineering Super Flex Radius Arms Review

 

[jcardona1]

If you just let the rear fall out, the front has no reason to work.

I have the opposite problem! The front is so loose with the coilovers/3link that the rear now has no reason to work. Really needs a re-design out back. With the front loosened up it becomes apparent how stiff the rear is. Swaybar also restricts a lot of movement which is why I'm currently working on a custom splined swaybar for the rear.

 

[GW Nugget]

I have the opposite problem! The front is so loose with the coilovers/3link that the rear now has no reason to work. Really needs a re-design out back. With the front loosened up it becomes apparent how stiff the rear is. Swaybar also restricts a lot of movement which is why I'm currently working on a custom splined swaybar for the rear.

But Jose, you are so outside the box... you have gone from fully armored & loaded to running light & removing body parts.
What coils & estimated lift do you have out back. I'm guessing 6" Slee...

 

[jcardona1]

But Jose, you are so outside the box... you have gone from fully armored & loaded to running light & removing body parts.
What coils & estimated lift do you have out back. I'm guessing 6" Slee...

Hey - based on your poll results you should be following in my footstep here shortly I have the OME 5" Comp coils. No idea what the actual lift is though since the height has changed after removing the rear bumper. I can measure if you give me a reference point. But keep in mind my fenders are all trimmed.

 

[Nay]

I have the opposite problem! The front is so loose with the coilovers/3link that the rear now has no reason to work. Really needs a re-design out back. With the front loosened up it becomes apparent how stiff the rear is. Swaybar also restricts a lot of movement which is why I'm currently working on a custom splined swaybar for the rear.

I wonder if that is a bad thing, though. In some of my old posts, I muse about converting the rear to leafs while 3-ilnking the front. The idea being that the 80 is too heavy to be an unrestricted slinky, so you really need one end with some resistance as articulation increases. People thought I was crazy, but take a look at some 3-link XJ's retaining the rear leafs (they are also a ton - literally - lighter than an 80).

It's interesting to see the rear on your rig providing some resistance now, which makes sense given a 3-link is totally unbound. But looking at your pic, the body is staying very level while the suspension works, and dropping that driver's rear down as you come off the rock on an unrestricted rear suspension setup...would it get floppy?

If I was on that line, my front end would be flexed, but still pulling the body down and the driver's rear would be max stuffed. Your suspension is handling that better, meaning I'd get tippy well before you would as it would want to come off at a lean whereas the more stable rear on your 80 holds the body while the front does the extra work.

I don't know - it's almost impossible to tell until you do it, but I'd be really wary of losing one end keeping the body level while the other does more work with this much sprung weight.

 

[GW Nugget]

From memory 5" Comps are 280lb or 300lb rate for your weight thats to stiff for what you use your rig for. I would say a 220lbs rate would wheel better but I don't know of any coil to fit tall & soft. What are the rates of your front coils? Here is a stock reference point for lift. How the FSM measures factory height.

Note they use the frame bump in the rear.

 

[GW Nugget]

I wonder if that is a bad thing, though. In some of my old posts, I muse about converting the rear to leafs while 3-ilnking the front. The idea being that the 80 is too heavy to be an unrestricted slinky, so you really need one end with some resistance as articulation increases. People thought I was crazy, but take a look at some 3-link XJ's retaining the rear leafs (they are also a ton - literally - lighter than an 80).

It's interesting to see the rear on your rig providing some resistance now, which makes sense given a 3-link is totally unbound. But looking at your pic, the body is staying very level while the suspension works, and dropping that driver's rear down as you come off the rock on an unrestricted rear suspension setup...would it get floppy?

If I was on that line, my front end would be flexed, but still pulling the body down and the driver's rear would be max stuffed. Your suspension is handling that better, meaning I'd get tippy well before you would as it would want to come off at a lean whereas the more stable rear on your 80 holds the body while the front does the extra work.

I don't know - it's almost impossible to tell until you do it, but I'd be really wary of losing one end keeping the body level while the other does more work with this much sprung weight.

Would it be a consideration to change rates up front? Softer top & stiffer bottom. Just for reference my Slinky fronts are 160lb/260lb

 

[jcardona1]

I wonder if that is a bad thing, though. In some of my old posts, I muse about converting the rear to leafs while 3-ilnking the front. The idea being that the 80 is too heavy to be an unrestricted slinky, so you really need one end with some resistance as articulation increases. People thought I was crazy, but take a look at some 3-link XJ's retaining the rear leafs (they are also a ton - literally - lighter than an 80).

It's interesting to see the rear on your rig providing some resistance now, which makes sense given a 3-link is totally unbound. But looking at your pic, the body is staying very level while the suspension works, and dropping that driver's rear down as you come off the rock on an unrestricted rear suspension setup...would it get floppy?

If I was on that line, my front end would be flexed, but still pulling the body down and the driver's rear would be max stuffed. Your suspension is handling that better, meaning I'd get tippy well before you would as it would want to come off at a lean whereas the more stable rear on your 80 holds the body while the front does the extra work.

I don't know - it's almost impossible to tell until you do it, but I'd be really wary of losing one end keeping the body level while the other does more work with this much sprung weight.

Those are good points. I do have plans on chopping the top, but that won't be anytime soon. I'm hoping that by going to the RuffStuff splined swaybar in the rear, it gives the rear a bit more room to move but still keeps it stable. Ideally I'd love to run a coilover setup in the rear, but I would definitely want splined swaybars front and rear. Making a swaybar fit up front with a 3link is a challenge. But I will say the rig feels a lot more stable offroad now than it did with the radius arms. It really does provide a boost in confidence.

Here's an older photo, similar line, but viewed from the front. This one was a bit more extreme as you can see more of the rear tire went into the fenders as I reached maximum downtravel on the front.

 

[jcardona1]

From memory 5" Comps are 280lb or 300lb rate for your weight thats to stiff for what you use your rig for. I would say a 220lbs rate would wheel better but I don't know of any coil to fit tall & soft. What are the rates of your front coils? Here is a stock reference point for lift. How the FSM measures factory height.

Note they use the frame bump in the rear.

Yeah the fronts are 200/350. The rear coils actually ride really nice. Has a nice firm feel but doesn't feel stiff as my truck isn't exactly light at about 6200lbs. I'll try to get some measurements over the next few days, but my rear bump stops are extended too, not sure if that will help using the method above.

 

[retrofive]

Yeah the fronts are 200/350. The rear coils actually ride really nice. Has a nice firm feel but doesn't feel stiff as my truck isn't exactly light at about 6200lbs. I'll try to get some measurements over the next few days, but my rear bump stops are extended too, not sure if that will help using the method above.

Where is your weight coming from? Mine is still right around 5400lbs.

 

[baldilocks]

Rubicon Springs tomorrow morning Gary. Wish you could make it. I will post a pic of my ridiculously tight and unbalanced suspension getting me there and back.

 

[GW Nugget]

Just minus the rear bump stop exstension.

 

[jcardona1]

Where is your weight coming from? Mine is still right around 5400lbs.

This was loaded up with all the typical camping gear and tools as that is always what's in the truck while I'm on the trails. Wheels and tires too perhaps? Those beadlocks are pretty heavy.

 

[retrofive]

This was loaded up with all the typical camping gear and tools as that is always what's in the truck while I'm on the trails. Wheels and tires too perhaps? Those beadlocks are pretty heavy.

I was wonder if that may be the case, tires, wheels, 3link, underarmor, housings, loaded. Mine pretty stock in reality and when weighed I didn't have anything loaded in it.

 

[GW Nugget]

Rubicon Springs tomorrow morning Gary. Wish you could make it. I will post a pic of my ridiculously tight and unbalanced suspension getting me there and back.

Yep, rub it in... ive had the Fj45 run planed for a year. Now home here taking care of family, my wife had galblader removed. Then was planning a day trip a closer location. Tuff seeing rigs roll out of my town all backed up headed for the hills.

My day & turn is coming... one plus is UPS tracking reads I have rear coils, front shocks & some Trail Gear front spindle nuts arriving today.

 

[baldilocks]

Good wishes for your wife's recovery. My wife had her gall bladder out 18 months ago and the recovery time is quick.

 

[Nay]

But Jose, you are so outside the box... you have gone from fully armored & loaded to running light & removing body parts.

Having seen some of his vids and pics, I think there's some proof here that a well designed 3-link is "in" the box (out of the box in my view is when you can't make the geometry work without say mounting the upper arms inside the cab)...at least offroad. I'm so familiar with a more restricted rear/flex front (suspension development in the XJ world) that it comes across to me as a well executed swap of restricted front end to slightly restricted rear end, the whole platform increasing range of flex without losing stability.

But what we see never tells the whole story. My 80, like all others with stock radius arms, will get tippy turning down and into an off-camber situation where the front end on one side drops in first (essentially a banked turn downhill where the inside front drops first say off a ledge). There is just no way for the rear to hold it back when the weight is forward (down the hill) and the front isn't going to flex in that situation. The opposite side rear wants to come up and you can feel it unload.

That's probably the only situation where I don't feel comfortable generally in my 80. A more restricted rear and unbound front will drive through that scenario without any drama. Sometimes the situation would be reverse, but if I had to choose, I would invert the factory design to a more stable rear/flexier front...recognizing that this usually comes with less onroad stability, and the 80 front end is incredible onroad with big tires. You don't almost die hitting expansion joints on angle at speed and the like and that's worth everything for road use.

So what is "in the box" for road use...I decided not to test it because you can throw an awful lot of money chasing what is the eventual sale of your rig for something a lot lighter and with better clearance and less sheet metal and glass, etc.

That goes to the poll here...and what is "hard core"...

 

[Nay]

Those are good points. I do have plans on chopping the top, but that won't be anytime soon. I'm hoping that by going to the RuffStuff splined swaybar in the rear, it gives the rear a bit more room to move but still keeps it stable. Ideally I'd love to run a coilover setup in the rear, but I would definitely want splined swaybars front and rear. Making a swaybar fit up front with a 3link is a challenge. But I will say the rig feels a lot more stable offroad now than it did with the radius arms. It really does provide a boost in confidence.

Here's an older photo, similar line, but viewed from the front. This one was a bit more extreme as you can see more of the rear tire went into the fenders as I reached maximum downtravel on the front.

Perfect example. Is the front strap limited at all? Maybe some tools there to balance to the back, but hell, you know way more at this point than I do. I never got off the web in 3-linking .

 

[GW Nugget]

Just posting this up for historical purpose.

I wanted to post this for historical purpose. My rig is temporarily 2" low in rear, but funny thing is the body is perfectly level front to rear. I even used a bubble level to prove it. So what I'm saying is the 80 series body has a natural 2" rake to it if the rig measures out same height front & rear center of hub to bottom of flare. This is why I like to have a level stance rig.

This is Gary again making another anal observation but still having fun with the LX & I'm out...

 

[jcardona1]

Just posting this up for historical purpose.

I wanted to post this for historical purpose. My rig is temporarily 2" low in rear, but funny thing is the body is perfectly level front to rear. I even used a bubble level to prove it. So what I'm saying is the 80 series body has a natural 2" rake to it if the rig measures out same height front & rear center of hub to bottom of flare. This is why I like to have a level stance rig.

This is Gary again making another anal observation but still having fun with the LX & I'm out...

Are the flares the right point of reference? Seems like they front has a taller wheel well compared to the rear. First I straightened your pic because it was a bit cock-eyed using the building in the back as a level line:

Once it was straight I placed a grid over it and drew a straight line along the fenders. You can see where the line crosses the flares, front is higher, rear is lower. You'll notice the line is perfectly level across the body cladding. But I guess we're saying the same thing about the body rake