Future Land Cruiser directions

[M1911]

Different markets are different.

Toyota’s current V8 diesel won’t meet US emissions regulations. It is already more expensive to build than the petrol 5.7 and adding exhaust after treatment to meet US regulations would significantly increase cost and reduce fuel economy. Furthermore, the current V8 diesel is way, way down on power compared to the petrol engine. Add in the fact that in many parts of the US diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol and the environmentalist backlash against diesel, and the reality is that a diesel Land Cruiser is a non-starter in the US market.

Here in the US, Toyota sold 3,500 Land Cruisers in 2019 versus 300,000 Corollas, 330,000 Camrys, 450,000 RAV4s.

 

[Rando Kuruza]

I buy new land cruisers and lx570’s... let me tell you I have never even once had someone say wow you have a LX570 that is so cool or so expensive. Most people just look it over as any other suv. People notice range rovers that are 10 years old over my 2018 LX. And the Land Cruiser nobody notices them. I don’t think buyers who buy LX’s and Land Cruiser buy time “Flex” their wealth. Personally I bought it for reliability and ease of ownership and the things the suv can do for me. Hell I owned my LX570 for 2 years before my sister was like did you get a new car??? Lol yes sis 2 years ago... if you want flash or prestige people buy Range Rover, Mercedes or BMW. People buy Lexus for reliability and a vehicle that is put together very well and will last for the long run. That’s my opinion from an owner who buys new. I always keep my vehicles to about 90,000 miles. I would like to keep longer if I could afford to keep a 200 sitting around and own a 300 on top of that. But most likely I will need to trade in

 

[TeCKis300]

Different markets are different.

Toyota’s current V8 diesel won’t meet US emissions regulations. It is already more expensive to build than the petrol 5.7 and adding exhaust after treatment to meet US regulations would significantly increase cost and reduce fuel economy. Furthermore, the current V8 diesel is way, way down on power compared to the petrol engine. Add in the fact that in many parts of the US diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol and the environmentalist backlash against diesel, and the reality is that a diesel Land Cruiser is a non-starter in the US market.

Here in the US, Toyota sold 3,500 Land Cruisers in 2019 versus 300,000 Corollas, 330,000 Camrys, 450,000 RAV4s.

Completely agreed.

What's interesting is world-wide annual sales of the Land Cruiser. Something like 400,000 units. There's no worry about future production. But more in what specification we'll get and what guise it'll be in.

 

[coleAK]

I buy new land cruisers and lx570’s... let me tell you I have never even once had someone say wow you have a LX570 that is so cool or so expensive. Most people just look it over as any other suv. People notice range rovers that are 10 years old over my 2018 LX. And the Land Cruiser nobody notices them. I don’t think buyers who buy LX’s and Land Cruiser buy time “Flex” their wealth. Personally I bought it for reliability and ease of ownership and the things the suv can do for me. Hell I owned my LX570 for 2 years before my sister was like did you get a new car??? Lol yes sis 2 years ago... if you want flash or prestige people buy Range Rover, Mercedes or BMW. People buy Lexus for reliability and a vehicle that is put together very well and will last for the long run. That’s my opinion from an owner who buys new. I always keep my vehicles to about 90,000 miles. I would like to keep longer if I could afford to keep a 200 sitting around and own a 300 on top of that. But most likely I will need to trade in

Most of the comments I’ve ever gotten about my LX is around how expensive they are. A have a buddy I work with who his wife drives a LC he says happens to her as well and embarrasses her every time. I will say though We have a lot of LC and LX where I live, way more than range rovers (which I almost never see).

 

[PlaneObsessed]

Most of the comments I’ve ever gotten about my LX is around how expensive they are. A have a buddy I work with who his wife drives a LC he says happens to her as well and embarrasses her every time. I will say though We have a lot of LC and LX where I live, way more than range rovers (which I almost never see).

It could be a location thing but around here in PNW I have only had very few people comment on my daily driven 2019 LC and those are enthusiasts or people from other parts of the world where the LC is more known and respected for its reliability and off road abilities. Other than that my LC gets no glance whatsoever and I love that about it. My family members and friends mistake it for a Highlander or a 4runner. My main reason of purchasing the LC was toyota reliability, off road capabilities and the old school SUV feeling of it. I plan on keeping forever OR until next Gen comes out. I know that if I ever get into a desperate situation where I'd have to sell it, it will fetch a decent resale.

 

[stonepa]

Sorry - talking North America.

 

[HRTROB]

Sorry - talking North America.

I only brought up the diesel because you said it’s not common outside NA and Australia. It actually is. If you’ve driven in Europe you would know that every gas station sells diesel, and it’s the same here as well. It’s probaby more common than in the US.

 

[stonepa]

I only brought up the diesel because you said it’s not common outside NA and Australia. It actually is. If you’ve driven in Europe you would know that every gas station sells diesel, and it’s the same here as well. It’s probaby more common than in the US.

Spent a lot of time driving all over the world. However, in the US it is a big discussion point about diesel Land Cruisers. Diesel LCs are really only interesting, in my opinion, because they are 'unobtanium'. But having driven them, I'd take a gasoline LC any day. In North and South America, the point I make is that diesel is available at truck stops on major highways but unleaded fuel is available everywhere, no matter how small the village.

 

[slipkid13]

Spent a lot of time driving all over the world. However, in the US it is a big discussion point about diesel Land Cruisers. Diesel LCs are really only interesting, in my opinion, because they are 'unobtanium'. But having driven them, I'd take a gasoline LC any day. In North and South America, the point I make is that diesel is available at truck stops on major highways but unleaded fuel is available everywhere, no matter how small the village.

Agree 100% Most folks who want a diesel have never actually driven one and lived with one. I don't understand why so many people think diesel is so great, esp. in light on the recent emissions cheating scandals.

 

[bloc]

Agree 100% Most folks who want a diesel have never actually driven one and lived with one. I don't understand why so many people think diesel is so great, esp. in light on the recent emissions cheating scandals.

The one indisputable reason in a 200 is range on the stock tank. Beyond that.. less power, less torque, worse manners, more complexity, more cost than the fantastic 3UR-FE 5.7L V8.

And the ironic thing is likely for less than what the 1VD option would cost, we can add an auxiliary tank. Though yes, we could also do that to the diesel and extend range even further.

 

[HRTROB]

The one indisputable reason in a 200 is range on the stock tank. Beyond that.. less power, less torque, worse manners, more complexity, more cost than the fantastic 3UR-FE 5.7L V8.

And the ironic thing is likely for less than what the 1VD option would cost, we can add an auxiliary tank. Though yes, we could also do that to the diesel and extend range even further.

Less power yes, but the 1VD has more torque than the 5.7. And more potential. The 1VD Is tuned conservatively by Toyota as you would expect. Here’s a dyno from a local VDJ200. 83whp gain. 462 lb-ft at the wheels. All with just an ECU flash.

 

[bloc]

Less power yes, but the 1VD has more torque than the 5.7. And more potential. The 1VD Is tuned conservatively by Toyota as you would expect. Here’s a dyno from a local VDJ200. 83whp gain. 462 lb-ft at the wheels. All with just an ECU flash.

View attachment 2232742

People seem to have more mechanical trouble with the stock 1VD than the 3UR already, let alone after adding a tune that increases horsepower by 40% through added manifold pressure, fuel, and as a result EGTs.

You are correct on more torque though, I was wrong. But, it is horsepower that gets work done and when stock the 3UR has over 100 more.

I’m not saying the 5.7 is better than the diesel in every market. You have to try hard to find places in the states without readily available gasoline. But I am agreeing with others saying they don’t understand why American buyers are clamoring for these diesels when the gas engine we do have is demonstrably better in a lot of ways and the one true drawback (tank range) is rarely an issue here. And this comes from a guy with a diesel Benz (OM648!!!), had a half dozen TDI VWs, and went though the effort of doing a 1KZ-TE diesel swap into a 4Runner in the past.

I did the diesel swap mostly because I wanted one.. it was really cool. Which is a legitimate reason. But at the end of the day it was slow and the mileage wasn’t that great. If guys would just admit that they want and are willing to pay for the 1VD just because it’s cool.. great. But that’s not how toyota makes it’s decisions. They have to be able to sell the thing and by the numbers (power, emissions, cost) it just doesn’t make sense in the American market.

As for potential.. have you seen what a 5.7 does with a supercharger? I personally think the current tuning options leave a lot to be desired but that will get sorted and suddenly we have a reliable 500+ horsepower in a landcruiser.

 

[bloc]

Oh and speaking of chip tuning.. if the TTV6 rumors are true they will likely be able to get a LOT of power out of the new gas cruiser engine. With just a chip.

Not that I personally think that engine is the best move.. but maybe wanting a naturally aspirated V8 puts me in the same category of guys wanting a diesel. Asking for something toyota won’t provide.

 

[TeCKis300]

Less power yes, but the 1VD has more torque than the 5.7. And more potential. The 1VD Is tuned conservatively by Toyota as you would expect. Here’s a dyno from a local VDJ200. 83whp gain. 462 lb-ft at the wheels. All with just an ECU flash.

View attachment 2232742

America is known for its large open expanses of highway and big mountian ranges. While torque is an important measure, HP is king. The reason why the 1VD won't sell here is 268HP is just not enough. Even with diesels efficiency benefits. No one wants to be cruising up a 7% grade in a premium luxury bruiser in the slow lane. Not when there's 400++HP Escalades and 300++HP family vehicles roaming around. That's the reality of life on the open road in America.

 

[99Cruiser]

I don't really want to deal with DEF and regen cycles on a daily driver, especially when most of my daily drives are under 5-10 miles. The diesel for me wouldn't even warm up plus gas mileage wouldn't be great due to my short drives.

 

[Redbull]

America is known for it's large open expanses of highway and big mountian ranges. While torque is an important measure, HP is king. The reason why the 1VD won't sell here is 268HP is just not enough. Even with diesels efficiency benefits. No one wants to be cruising up a 7% grade in a premium luxury bruiser in the slow lane. Not when there's 400++HP Escalades and 300++HP family vehicles roaming around. That's the reality of life on the open road in America.

True. I believe if the diesel was the only engine the LC would have been canceled a long time ago. The current 5.7 is already outgunned in its segment, a diesel with less HP than a $35000 Highlander is a sure way to cancellation.

 

[Harper34]

Agree 100% Most folks who want a diesel have never actually driven one and lived with one. I don't understand why so many people think diesel is so great, esp. in light on the recent emissions cheating scandals.

The one indisputable reason in a 200 is range on the stock tank. Beyond that.. less power, less torque, worse manners, more complexity, more cost than the fantastic 3UR-FE 5.7L V8.

And the ironic thing is likely for less than what the 1VD option would cost, we can add an auxiliary tank. Though yes, we could also do that to the diesel and extend range even further.

Most people who downplay the significance and relevance of diesel have likewise never spent time in one.

I've driven plenty of NA Toyota v8's and v6's, and I've driven all manner of diesel 4 cylinder, inline 6's and v8's...for truck and 4x4 purposes, the diesel is hands-down a better driving experience.

Handles payload/towing better.
Doesn't need to be rev'd to high hell to provide usable power (less engine noise).
It gets much better range, especially in working applications.
Less cooling issues to worry about versus a gasoline.
Also, the logistics of storing extra diesel fuel are much more simple (don't have to worry about low combustion points and evap emissions).

The Toyota gasoline engines, especially the v8's and v6's. are good in that they work and, generally-speaking, last much longer compared to their North American counterparts. However, you "build up" a 4runner or even a LC a moderate amount and you now have a rig which needs regearing and needs 2-3 extra jerry cans just to stay out of trouble...the mpg's just tank way too quickly on these gasoline engines.

I've done long, off-the-beaten path, road trips in Tacoma's & 4runners and I've done them in diesel HIlux's...the Hilux was a much better ride and all around driving experience because the torque was just there when you needed it. Yeah sure, it doesn't have the top-end horsepower of the 5.7l v8 or 3.5l v6, but trucks and 4x4's should prioritize low-end torque over high-RPM horsepower....unless in you're in the Baja 1000.

Toyota has the capability to make an emissions-compliant diesel...they already provide some for the EU. Whether or not they will offer that option for North America is a different can of worms.

 

[bloc]

They won’t.

And toyota doesn’t care about the “built” landcruiser market at all. It isn’t even on their radar when thinking about what engine to offer here.. in Australia it’s clearly a different story. In areas of Europe if you don’t offer diesel a vehicle just won’t sell.. it’s too big a part of the car culture.

Whether it makes it at high RPMs or low, 268hp isn’t near enough for the US market when toyota looks at how these $80k+ vehicles will be used and what they have to compete with. Let alone if you have to pay a few thousand extra for the privilege of doing 20mph on I70 up a pass in Colorado, while getting passed by the cheaper 200s happily singing along at 4k rpm.

Sure, a handful of people would love that glorious turbo diesel sound and range and not mind the -120hp, but toyota knows it’s not enough to bother.

I’ve spent a lot of time in diesels, both old and modern. That seat time and an understanding of the market here is what informs my opinion on the relevance of a diesel option in this vehicle. These aren’t 1-ton pickups (of which many more gasoline ones are being sold lately for a variety of reasons, by the way). Toyota is only able to justify selling the landcruiser here as a loaded luxo-barge and in that context their diesel offerings just don’t make sense.

You bring up some good points but I maintain that many of the people asking for them are only doing so because they can’t have one. If they could, in America, they’d find our current engine option very good over the long term.

 

[Harper34]

They won’t.

And toyota doesn’t care about the “built” landcruiser market at all. It isn’t even on their radar when thinking about what engine to offer here.. in Australia it’s clearly a different story. In areas of Europe if you don’t offer diesel a vehicle just won’t sell.. it’s too big a part of the car culture.

Whether it makes it at high RPMs or low, 268hp isn’t near enough for the US market when toyota looks at how these $80k+ vehicles will be used and what they have to compete with. Let alone if you have to pay a few thousand extra for the privilege of doing 20mph on I70 up a pass in Colorado, while getting passed by the cheaper 200s happily singing along at 4k rpm.

Sure, a handful of people would love that glorious turbo diesel sound and range and not mind the -120hp, but toyota knows it’s not enough to bother.

I’ve spent a lot of time in diesels, both old and modern. That seat time and an understanding of the market here is what informs my opinion on the relevance of a diesel option in this vehicle. These aren’t 1-ton pickups (of which many more gasoline ones are being sold lately for a variety of reasons, by the way). Toyota is only able to justify selling the landcruiser here as a loaded luxo-barge and in that context their diesel offerings just don’t make sense.

You bring up some good points but I maintain that many of the people asking for them are only doing so because they can’t have one. If they could, in America, they’d find our current engine option very good over the long term.

How many modern diesels have you driven? Especially Toyota ones? They get up to speed just fine and they can cruise at +80 mph with no problem.

Will they win drag races from stop-light? No, certainly not. But then again if that's you're primary concern when considering a 4x4/truck, then I question why you're even buying one to begin with. Will a 5.7l LC 200 move faster up a grade than a diesel one? Probably. But that 5.7l v8 engine is reving to redline and sucking down fuel at the rapid rate while doing so...that might be a "happy singing" experience in your book, in my book that's an unavoidable evil inherent to gasoline v8's.

You're fixated on the horsepower numbers...the torque tells you how that horsepower is delivered: Horsepower = (Torque * RPM)/5252.
In any kind of working scenario (bigger tires, bigger payload, 4x4'ing in rough terrain) the diesel will get the job done more efficiently and with much less effort. I really couldn't care less about how fast the GM and Ford SUV's are going...I care more about a pleasant and reliable driving experience.

Perhaps a market for diesel doesn't truly exist, though 3/4 and 1 tons still sell them like crazy. But I think that has more to do with the inadequacies and foolishness of North America's HP wars than it has to do with diesel's inadequacies. Too many people out there buying trucks and SUV's for the wrong reasons.

 

[TeCKis300]

How many modern diesels have you driven? Especially Toyota ones? They get up to speed just fine and they can cruise at +80 mph with no problem.

Will they win drag races from stop-light? No, certainly not. But then again if that's you're primary concern when considering a 4x4/truck, then I question why you're even buying one to begin with. Will a 5.7l LC 200 move faster up a grade than a diesel one? Probably. But that 5.7l v8 engine is reving to redline and sucking down fuel at the rapid rate while doing so...that might be a "happy singing" experience in your book, in my book that's an unavoidable evil inherent to gasoline v8's.

You're fixated on the horsepower numbers...the torque tells you how that horsepower is delivered: Horsepower = (Torque * RPM)/5252.
In any kind of working scenario (bigger tires, bigger payload, 4x4'ing in rough terrain) the diesel will get the job done more efficiently and with much less effort. I really couldn't care less about how fast the GM and Ford SUV's are going...I care more about a pleasant and reliable driving experience.

Perhaps a market for diesel doesn't truly exist, though 3/4 and 1 tons still sell them like crazy. But I think that has more to do with the inadequacies and foolishness of North America's HP wars than it has to do with diesel's inadequacies. Too many people out there buying trucks and SUV's for the wrong reasons.

It would be clear from my avatar that I tow. It's a pretty heavy rig, over the 200-series spec GCWR of 14,645lbs when I'm on extended vacation.

You make some good points and I agree with them in general against many gas motors. The difference here is that the 5.7L is a brute. With solid low end and ~130hp on the diesel, it will absolutely climb a grade, considerably faster than the diesel. Climbing is all about HP - the very definition of which is doing work to against time. It is immensely capable and pleasant (albeit thirsty) when climbing the many many grades I've done over the Rockies here in the west. Or passing. 268hp would have me sitting with the big rigs in the slow lane at my rigs weight.

The thing about torque is that it can be multiplied with gearing. Re-gearing as you did mention. Because what really matters is torque at the wheels. I'm on 33's and stock gears, which would be a disadvantage. Towing above rating rated spec. Yet performance is still solid and pleasant. Credit to the 5.7L lug underhood.

Importantly, a diesel driveline is generally heavier, further subtracting from payload. In the 200-series case, I believe the diesel configurations I've seen are significantly de-contented to save weight and preserve payload.