FAWKING MIND BOGGLING - HitR 2016 (4 Viewers)

[cruiseroutfit]

...Can ya still drive down to the water? Thanks, Dave

Legally, no. Ethically, you decide.

I'll say my peace again in this thread, the road to the water aka the Rincon Trail is CLOSED. The National Park Service (who currently has the sole authority on the route) removed it from their motorized travel map in 1979. They can and have ticketed groups at the shoreline and have marked the upper turnoff numerous times. Efforts are underway via the county (San Jaun), state and OHV access groups to get it back on an OHV/ROW map through the RS2477 legal challenge (which is still very active on a state level) and/or via a change in the resource management plan of the park itself. However those same same county, state and OHV groups ask that you respect the current law/regs and not trespass the road, it does nothing for our cause to pretend ignorance. Poaching the trail under the guise of a "super secret trail" may seem like a victimless crime to you, but come sit down as we meet with Federal Land Managers and various user groups and I can assure you not only is the impact noted, the user conflict and rogue attitude is also recorded. I'll be in land access meetings later this afternoon at the Salt Lake Off-road Expo with county, state and Federal Land Managers, as well as members of the UTV OHV community (U4WDA, UTMA, USXSA, etc), I'd invite any of you local to SLC (@mryanangel) as my guest. Come see how many and how much effort is being expended to protect, advocate and legitimize Utahs OHV routes against the constant threat of administrative closure, Wilderness designation, RMP closure, etc. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

For the most in depth discussion on the issue you can read here:

http://www.expeditionutah.com/forum/index.php?threads/glen-canyon-deis.3863/page-4#post-63105

You can read more on Mud here:

Events/Trails - 200s on Hole in the Rock Trail HITR

...The Rincon spur is also superb fun wheeling. Is it open or closed-depends on who you talk to. I've been there and back 3 times and not sure if I'll get there again, but it doubles the sketchy fun of this trail... Unfortunately it's pretty black/white. Who do you talk to? :D The National...

forum.ih8mud.com

UTAH/ARIZONA - Glen Canyon Off-road Vehicle Management Plan

U4 hosted a great letter writing party the other night for the Glen Canyon Off-road Vehicle Management Plan! For those that made it, I hope you had a great time and had plenty of pizza, please don't forget to send me a copy of your comments. If you didn't make it, please make sure to submit...

forum.ih8mud.com

(Or the same discussion and my plea in this very thread)

Now, all that said. There is a case for running that trail, be loud and proud about it. Work WITH the county and access groups to bring what could be national attention to the trail and it's legal conflict via a protest ride. This has and will be happening more on contested routes with the exact circumstances as the Rincon Trail. I can't speak for San Juans position on protest rides as is never come up in my conversations with the commissioners there but other counties have protest rides led by the commissioners themselves. Hell, San Juan County commissioners made the news years ago going all over BLM roads and pulling the closed carsonite signs from the ground. They like the attention.

 

[spressomon]

Thanks Kurt for your reply & information.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Thanks Kurt for your reply & information.

Really I look forward to the day I can reply and say "it's open", that will absolutely happen if/when the state of Utah gets their RS2477 claims resolved which is currently a very active project. They have an FJ Cruiser out running these routes, hiking where legally required and photo documenting and GPS'ing the routes. I've been contributing historical access information and maps as I can find them. Rincon is a no brainer from a right-of-way standpoint. It's historic use pre-1976 (when RS2477 was repealed) is well documented. While it's a tiny road on a giant list of road claims the state of Utah maintains, it's one with about as much support as any.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

As Kurt noted Rincon is a closed trail keep running it and run the risk of the entire area being close.

Also noted in the past is National Park Service needs to do a better job letting people know its closed. No where anywhere on the trail or at the main entrance where everyone starts HIRT does say anything about Rincon being closed.

 

[spressomon]

Kurt, et al would know the year this was enacted by USFS, BLM, etc., but the responsibility for knowing where no-travel boundaries are (mostly Wilderness IIRC) is upon the user (was changed/enacted somewhat recently). For example: If you are in a Wilderness area with a motor/bicycle you can get ticketed; even if said trail was not signed.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Kurt, et al would know the year this was enacted by USFS, BLM, etc., but the responsibility for knowing where no-travel boundaries are (mostly Wilderness IIRC) is upon the user (was changed/enacted somewhat recently). For example: If you are in a Wilderness area with a motor/bicycle you can get ticketed; even if said trail was not signed.

Different land managers and even districts regulate it a bit differently. For example in much of Utahs West Desert it's still regulated on the Resource Management Plan that routes are "limited to existing" and even "open to cross-country travel". However as more and more BLM districts revise their RMP's and in the case of all FS and NPS lands, they do limits to "designated routes" hence the whole Know Before You Go movement from OHV access groups.

Pray for D2309

 

[FJ60Cam]

So... @cruiseroutfit & @mryanangel , when is the protest ride?

 

[Dirty Koala]

Legally, no. Ethically, you decide.

I'll say my peace again in this thread, the road to the water aka the Rincon Trail is CLOSED. The National Park Service (who currently has the sole authority on the route) removed it from their motorized travel map in 1979. They can and have ticketed groups at the shoreline and have marked the upper turnoff numerous times. Efforts are underway via the county (San Jaun), state and OHV access groups to get it back on an OHV/ROW map through the RS2477 legal challenge (which is still very active on a state level) and/or via a change in the resource management plan of the park itself. However those same same county, state and OHV groups ask that you respect the current law/regs and not trespass the road, it does nothing for our cause to pretend ignorance. Poaching the trail under the guise of a "super secret trail" may seem like a victimless crime to you, but come sit down as we meet with Federal Land Managers and various user groups and I can assure you not only is the impact noted, the user conflict and rogue attitude is also recorded. I'll be in land access meetings later this afternoon at the Salt Lake Off-road Expo with county, state and Federal Land Managers, as well as members of the UTV OHV community (U4WDA, UTMA, USXSA, etc), I'd invite any of you local to SLC (@mryanangel) as my guest. Come see how many and how much effort is being expended to protect, advocate and legitimize Utahs OHV routes against the constant threat of administrative closure, Wilderness designation, RMP closure, etc. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

For the most in depth discussion on the issue you can read here:

http://www.expeditionutah.com/forum/index.php?threads/glen-canyon-deis.3863/page-4#post-63105

You can read more on Mud here:

Events/Trails - 200s on Hole in the Rock Trail HITR

...The Rincon spur is also superb fun wheeling. Is it open or closed-depends on who you talk to. I've been there and back 3 times and not sure if I'll get there again, but it doubles the sketchy fun of this trail... Unfortunately it's pretty black/white. Who do you talk to? :D The National...

forum.ih8mud.com

UTAH/ARIZONA - Glen Canyon Off-road Vehicle Management Plan

U4 hosted a great letter writing party the other night for the Glen Canyon Off-road Vehicle Management Plan! For those that made it, I hope you had a great time and had plenty of pizza, please don't forget to send me a copy of your comments. If you didn't make it, please make sure to submit...

forum.ih8mud.com

(Or the same discussion and my plea in this very thread)

Now, all that said. There is a case for running that trail, be loud and proud about it. Work WITH the county and access groups to bring what could be national attention to the trail and it's legal conflict via a protest ride. This has and will be happening more on contested routes with the exact circumstances as the Rincon Trail. I can't speak for San Juans position on protest rides as is never come up in my conversations with the commissioners there but other counties have protest rides led by the commissioners themselves. Hell, San Juan County commissioners made the news years ago going all over BLM roads and pulling the closed carsonite signs from the ground. They like the attention.

Thanks for the invite Kurt, if the meeting was on Monday or later I would join you. I fly back into SLC Monday morning.

 

[fireball]

Hi Kurt, coincidentally enough, I am driving through Salt Lake this afternoon and would like to check out the expo. Will send you a PM for details to see if we could maybe catch up for a minute.

 

[Dirty Koala]

@fireball ...will you still be in SLC on Monday?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

So... @cruiseroutfit & @mryanangel , when is the protest ride?

I have zero personal interest in being part of a protest ride as I work directly with BLM and FS districts on proactive efforts and permitted activities. But, I'd be happy to help connect anyone wishing to do so with the county commissioners, etc.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Hi Kurt, coincidentally enough, I am driving through Salt Lake this afternoon and would like to check out the expo. Will send you a PM for details to see if we could maybe catch up for a minute.

Replied to your PM, details on the expo itself here:

https://slorex.com/

The club/landuse roundtable just ended. I'm sitting in the Utah Off-Roaders United Association now. Topic today is the Emery County Lands Use Bill that could/will cost us routes in the San Rafael Swell, minimum 74 miles of roads.

 

[fireball]

Funny. Am planning to stay at wedge overlook tomorrow night and somewhere near end of devils racetrack Monday night before heading into Denver Tuesday.

I’ll be at show around 330 and maybe we can connect.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Funny. Am planning to stay at wedge overlook tomorrow night and somewhere near end of devils racetrack Monday night before heading into Denver Tuesday.

I’ll be at show around 330 and maybe we can connect.

Discussing Devils Racetrack this exact second...

 

[slacker24-7]

Kurt, thanks for the info!
Cam pm sent. Thanks, Dave

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Funny. Am planning to stay at wedge overlook tomorrow night and somewhere near end of devils racetrack Monday night before heading into Denver Tuesday.

I’ll be at show around 330 and maybe we can connect.

Are you coming back through SLC on your return trip? If so I'd love to plan to grab lunch or dinner.

We'Ill be a day behind you in the Swell. Quite a bit of snow down there so be careful on DRT if solo.

 

[concretejungle]

When we were there there was no signage indicating even a trail. It didn't say closed, keep out, nothing. I personally, being a guest, would of never known either way since no map we had said trail closed or again, no signage. Personally I can completely get on board with staying off the trail if it's closed while things get worked out, but if there was a ranger ticketing then I would have had a very big issue with that.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

When we were there there was no signage indicating even a trail. It didn't say closed, keep out, nothing. I personally, being a guest, would of never known either way since no map we had said trail closed or again, no signage. Personally I can completely get on board with staying off the trail if it's closed while things get worked out, but if there was a ranger ticketing then I would have had a very big issue with that.

Know Before You Go (literally the slogan they push). I won't disagree they could do a better job signing it, but it has been signed in the past. That said as as discussed earlier in the thread it is the user's responsibility to seek out route information via the land manager travel maps prior to traveling an area. While most areas used to be open to "existing" routes, they have transitioned to "designated" routes and simply put it's your job to know investigate what is open/closed or as some would argue "consider them closed unless signed otherwise". The only map that matters in these cases is that of the actual land manager with jurisdiction over the area of travel, be it BLM, Forest Service, NPS or in this case Glen Canyon NRA. Using the map of a different jurisdiction and/or a private party wouldn't be much of a defense for tickets... in fact I've never heard of that working. There are literally thousands of old roads here in Utah that would appear on USGS 7.5k maps for example, all of which see no longer open to OHV use. The USGS isn't the lamd manager.

Out of curiosity, what maps did you have that showed the Rincon Trail?

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Know Before You Go (literally the slogan they push). I won't disagree they could do a better job signing it, but it has been signed in the past. That said as as discussed earlier in the thread it is the user's responsibility to seek out route information via the land manager travel maps prior to traveling an area. While most areas used to be open to "existing" routes, they have transitioned to "designated" routes and simply put it's your job to know investigate what is open/closed or as some would argue "consider them closed unless signed otherwise". The only map that matters in these cases is that of the actual land manager with jurisdiction over the area of travel, be it BLM, Forest Service, NPS or in this case Glen Canyon NRA. Using the map of a different jurisdiction and/or a private party wouldn't be much of a defense for tickets... in fact I've never heard of that working. There are literally thousands of old roads here in Utah that would appear on USGS 7.5k maps for example, all of which see no longer open to OHV use. The USGS isn't the lamd manager.

Out of curiosity, what maps did you have that showed the Rincon Trail?

Several Gaia GPS layers show the Rincon Trail

 

[concretejungle]

Kurt I totally hear what you are saying and knowing when you deal with government there is no common sense. I deal with it daily. I liken that logic to "hey, there is an exit ramp off the highway, no signage says it's open or closed so I better pull over and google search or call the DOT to find out if I can exit or not".... that's the way I see it.

I was with a group so we were using different maps. I was using MotionX and it shows the trail very clearly but does not say if any of the trails are open or closed, just that they are there.