BTW to everyone else. I am running the same fan blade dan is for two years with no issues. And my supercharged system maintains temp during normal city driving between 180 and 185F
Fan Blade thru Radiator
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Not arguing with anyone, I spent way too much time researching radiator fans for my 80, and came to the conclusion quite a while ago, that Mr. T was years ahead of it's time with the -065010 ringed fan, and just ordered another after spending a lot of time exploring a plethora of fan options. I also added hood vents which reduced downstream draft resistance.
Interesting that Borg Warner only recently caught the ringed fan fever in their new product releases.
http://thermal.borgwarner.com/PDFs/EFM.pdf
or google the "new" 704MDRF ringed fan introduction only 2 years ago
Anyone can read the same library material I did: H. Tsubota or K. Shimada did SAE level testing and summarized what I wrote above.
I also did a lot of mods to more than 1 stock 80 fan blade... By the time I cut the blades enough to not munch the radiator, I'd wager any 17in fan would outperform it. And, I agree with Dan that the 16361-065020 non ringed fan will fit in the SC application 80 also. Ringed fans are already the standard, for the reasons I listed above.
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
Interesting that Borg Warner only recently caught the ringed fan fever in their new product releases.
http://thermal.borgwarner.com/PDFs/EFM.pdf
or google the "new" 704MDRF ringed fan introduction only 2 years ago
Anyone can read the same library material I did: H. Tsubota or K. Shimada did SAE level testing and summarized what I wrote above.
I also did a lot of mods to more than 1 stock 80 fan blade... By the time I cut the blades enough to not munch the radiator, I'd wager any 17in fan would outperform it. And, I agree with Dan that the 16361-065020 non ringed fan will fit in the SC application 80 also. Ringed fans are already the standard, for the reasons I listed above.
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
If I had a SC I would run the fan recommended by CruiseDan. He and others have hard real life data supporting it's better cooling ability.
These guys aren't idiots and if real life doesn't jive with theory then the theory is flawed, plain and simple.
These guys aren't idiots and if real life doesn't jive with theory then the theory is flawed, plain and simple.
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Well it is winter here and I NEED to get out on the trail before the trails close in 2 weeks so I'm going to get which ever one I can get to my door first. I would think the ringed fan would be my first choice just out of simplicity (no cutting of the fan shroud) and that added comfort. I've never really compared the fans before so we will see. If I get overheating come summertime.
One other thought though regarding downdraft and hood vents. I was under the impression that the hood vents allowed heat to dissapate and be pushed out of them not in. I've not felt above one before but I know I could feel substantial air trying to escape from my hood sides on my FJ62 and assumed the vents just helped this air move out of the engine compartment, not bring cold air in with a down draft. I thought the fan(with shroud) allowed maximum air to be pulled thru the radiator itself.
I might start another thread on this as it is a slightly different topic but for those of us with over heating problems I think the oil cooler may not be up to par. Though it is of a fairly good size I am not sure of the amount of air flow thru there. I'm told from drag racing freinds that an oil cooler with a fan makes a substantial difference to engine temps 10+ degrees. Especially when they are running hot fuel and not moving fast. Which is the case on a SC engine on the trails....Less than 1MPH movement and running Higher Octane fuel. I know the Snorkle helps lower temps a couple of degrees. I'm sure an aluminum radiator with a higher mixture of water than antifreeze, combined with hood vents and a fan on the oil cooler would be more than enough to get me into the safe levels on a hot trail day.
Any thoughts?
One other thought though regarding downdraft and hood vents. I was under the impression that the hood vents allowed heat to dissapate and be pushed out of them not in. I've not felt above one before but I know I could feel substantial air trying to escape from my hood sides on my FJ62 and assumed the vents just helped this air move out of the engine compartment, not bring cold air in with a down draft. I thought the fan(with shroud) allowed maximum air to be pulled thru the radiator itself.
I might start another thread on this as it is a slightly different topic but for those of us with over heating problems I think the oil cooler may not be up to par. Though it is of a fairly good size I am not sure of the amount of air flow thru there. I'm told from drag racing freinds that an oil cooler with a fan makes a substantial difference to engine temps 10+ degrees. Especially when they are running hot fuel and not moving fast. Which is the case on a SC engine on the trails....Less than 1MPH movement and running Higher Octane fuel. I know the Snorkle helps lower temps a couple of degrees. I'm sure an aluminum radiator with a higher mixture of water than antifreeze, combined with hood vents and a fan on the oil cooler would be more than enough to get me into the safe levels on a hot trail day.
Any thoughts?
The links I searched here over the years have opinions without data, what "hard real life data"? Where is the comparison of ringed fan to non ringed fan? I don't claim anyone is an idiot in this regard. I claim that ringed fans have documented SAE method-comparison-tested benefits to air flow properties thru a radiator. I also claim that Mr. T had the same ability to spec either the -65010 or the -65020 fan blade in the TRD SC kit, and continues to spec the ringed -65010 fan blade for good reason. High heat generating motorcycle, tractor, light duty truck, commercial truck, and construction engines all use ringed radiator fan technology, with more automotive applications going to ringed fan blades every year. For good reason, they have documented benefits to noise and airflow performance.landtank said:
Search "ABC of 80's Cooling Part IV - Hood Vents"... To be clear, when speaking to radiator fans, there is an upstream side (before the fan blades/radiator) and downstream side (after the fan blades). When speaking to "downstream draft resistance" in reference to hood vents, I speak to forcing air out of the (fan blade-)downstream-side hood vents in my 80. Read: Hood vents reduce a fan blade's downstream draft resistance.
An additional oil cooler wil help, but IMO/E it's the trans cooler gets really hot, and that's just upstream of the radiator (after that hot trans fluid is *in* the radiator). A more beneficial approach might be to relocate the trans cooler, which will give you room to mount a fairly large (or additional) pusher fan. In my measures of engine oil temps on the 80, I found no compelling reason to add an additional engine oil cooler. That said, an oil filter sandwich plate with thermostat allows you to add larger oil cooler capacity when needed.
HTH and my .02
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
16361-65010 ringed fan
Scott there is more to it that just the blade.
Go find yourself an 89-93 V6 truck or 4Runner, open the hood and look at the shroud.
The shroud-to-blade fit is almost interference, the shape of the shroud is very odd as well.
In other words, the shroud and the blade are matched and work togther. You do not have that partnership when you stick the blade inside that big old 1FZ shroud.
By the way Toyota dropped that design in the 1994 model year because the shroud-to-blade interface was so close that every now and then the two would tango and the blade blows up and takes out the shroud, the air cleaner assembly, the battery, the radiatior and beats the hell out of the hood.
Pretty much a superior design, I guess.
Oh, forgot.
I know one of the guys that was in on the development of the kit. They picked the ringed fan because it did not hit the radiator. That was the ONLY reason they chose it.
Go find yourself an 89-93 V6 truck or 4Runner, open the hood and look at the shroud.
The shroud-to-blade fit is almost interference, the shape of the shroud is very odd as well.
In other words, the shroud and the blade are matched and work togther. You do not have that partnership when you stick the blade inside that big old 1FZ shroud.
By the way Toyota dropped that design in the 1994 model year because the shroud-to-blade interface was so close that every now and then the two would tango and the blade blows up and takes out the shroud, the air cleaner assembly, the battery, the radiatior and beats the hell out of the hood.
Pretty much a superior design, I guess.
Oh, forgot.
I know one of the guys that was in on the development of the kit. They picked the ringed fan because it did not hit the radiator. That was the ONLY reason they chose it.
Scott there is more to it that just the blade.
Go find yourself an 89-93 V6 truck or 4Runner, open the hood and look at the shroud.
The shroud-to-blade fit is almost interference, the shape of the shroud is very odd as well.
In other words, the shroud and the blade are matched and work togther. You do not have that partnership when you stick the blade inside that big old 1FZ shroud.
By the way Toyota dropped that design in the 1994 model year because the shroud-to-blade interface was so close that every now and then the two would tango and the blade blows up and takes out the shroud, the air cleaner assembly, the battery, the radiatior and beats the hell out of the hood.
Pretty much a superior design, I guess.
Oh, forgot.
I know one of the guys that was in on the development of the kit. They picked the ringed fan because it did not hit the radiator. That was the ONLY reason they chose it.
Dan, the shroud and the stock fan interfere, and the shroud and the 65010 and are known to interfere in the exact same spot you claim need to trim shroud for the -65020 fan. The OP put up pics of where his blade hit at 15mph at WOT, which appears to be an engine torque equation causing the nose of the engine to rise in relation to the frame rail. My very first failure with the ringed fan as well, exactly the same spot at the lower core. The second time it hit, the fan blew up, because the blades are attached to each other. Different from a hi-rpm or chassis drop failure where the fan blades attempt to drill a hole through the radiator core in a perfect circle, btdt many times II.
The shape of a shroud needs to accommodate engine torque, because the shroud is fixed, and the engine is not. In vehicles with snub mounts that have ringed fans the ringed fan can be much closer to the fixed radiator. I have one of these attached to a high torque Audi V8 quattro with a close fitting engine mounted ringed fan and snub mount.
We could address the problem in the 80 by putting in a less efficient 'fan that fits', or look at why the more efficient fan appears to cause failure later in 80 life cycles. Since Mr. TRD tested this ringed-fan application (incidental parts bin dip or not), it worked for them with the additional 1.5in diameter of the stock shroud, and at all rpm levels. Why does it then 'fail' when installed in other 80 applications? Possibly because a 15 year old truck install has more nose up on-torque properties than the ones tested by Mr. T?
Your part number recommendation of 06361-65020 certainly *can* work and you claim it does. My point is that fitment does not make it more efficient, fitment can only possibly address fitment, not performance. And I further suspect, that 17in non ringed fan is a lot closer to the radiator than you think. The good news is, being an inch shorter in diameter, it's blades don't catch on the core>end tank section the 18.5 in stocker does.
If you measure the actual dynamic differences between the 17in ringed -65010 and the -65020, you might see that we are talking fractions of inches of clearance. Easy to test, put a piece of clay in the bottom of the shroud. My suggestion OTOH would be to use the ringed fan, and replace the rubber mounts for engine/trans to reduce the engine torque flex that increased with the addition of the SC torque.
Or, take your suggestion and use the -65020 part number and deal with nose up torque later.
No disrespect Dan, only looking hard at the issue with the ringed fan vs the alternatives to it's excellent design.
Cheers
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
Have a nice day. I'm tired.
Dan,
YOU HAVE NO HAIR?
I didn't tell me that before I got all those parts from you!!!!
YOU HAVE NO HAIR?
I didn't tell me that before I got all those parts from you!!!!
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It is actually absolutely proven that the fitment in fact makes a major difference in performance of the fan/fan shroud combo. Exactly where the fan is placed and positioned within the fan shroud makes a major difference.
2x. Just over a year now - suggested fan and trimmed shroud. No issues with it here.
You deserve a
. Take the afternoon off. Tell your boss some random guy on the interwebs told you it was OK./************/
Back on topic...
The ringed fan has thinner, shorter blades and leaves a big gap between it and the shroud.
Dan's alternate fan (with the shroud trimmed) makes a better fit. No 'data' to back it up, but it has worked well for me.
I probably still have the stock SC ring fan somewhere in a box in the garage.
Dan,
Let's use your own data... from posts 91 and 98 here
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/55521-tools-r-us-bad-dude-4.html
More data on SC truck
Stock tank to tank height on the FZ radiator is 16.75in
The stock 18.5in fan blade with full interference will make a 17.25in OD diameter bore into the radiator, clipping the lower tank>core as pictured above.
Using your own measures for fitment it would appear that the ringed fan -65010 would give an extra 1/8in clearance to the radiator core without factoring in the non-ringed fan blades deformity under load.
What I read in the thread above is you opinion the ringed fan is not as good a design using your hand test in the center of the fan blade where airflow is the lowest in any design fan. That's a bad rap IMO. From strictly a fitment perspective, using your own data, it would appear the ringed fan has more dynamic clearance to the radiator core, has less blade flex, and less noise.
Reading through this carefully, I'm not sure I understand the real benefit of the non ringed fan in fitment or performance.
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
Let's use your own data... from posts 91 and 98 here
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/55521-tools-r-us-bad-dude-4.html
cruiserdan said:
More data on SC truck
Stock tank to tank height on the FZ radiator is 16.75in
The stock 18.5in fan blade with full interference will make a 17.25in OD diameter bore into the radiator, clipping the lower tank>core as pictured above.
Using your own measures for fitment it would appear that the ringed fan -65010 would give an extra 1/8in clearance to the radiator core without factoring in the non-ringed fan blades deformity under load.
What I read in the thread above is you opinion the ringed fan is not as good a design using your hand test in the center of the fan blade where airflow is the lowest in any design fan. That's a bad rap IMO. From strictly a fitment perspective, using your own data, it would appear the ringed fan has more dynamic clearance to the radiator core, has less blade flex, and less noise.
Reading through this carefully, I'm not sure I understand the real benefit of the non ringed fan in fitment or performance.
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
Scott it does not matter what I say (or what anyone else says for that matter). You will take it and spin it a few times and come up with 4 nice paragraphs of bull****. I will not play your game any longer.
I had the same EXACT thing happen to me a few months back... had the stock (trimmed) fan on for a few years with the SC and had no problems... I replaced the radiator with the copper 3 core from performance radiator and had the same catastrophic failure on a trail in Moab only a few hundred miles later (less than 500 miles).. I CSI'ed the crap out of it and found that the new radiator (not OEM) placed the shroud a little out of stock location and the fan hit the shroud on the bottom and folded the same 2 fan bladed forward and cut the rad like a knife! Mine still had the blade pieces connected to the fan but were bent just like yours... my RAD drained in less than 1 minute!! I have since replaced my new rad with the 3 core aluminium from performance (made by a OEM Toyota supplier) and put the crappy ringed fan back on.. no problems now.. sorry it had to happen to anyone else!!
in the end over $500 in radiators and a $300 tow bill to the hotel and then my brother drove over 200 miles (one way) with a trailer to get us home....
very bad day in Moab..
good luck
Bret
in the end over $500 in radiators and a $300 tow bill to the hotel and then my brother drove over 200 miles (one way) with a trailer to get us home....
very bad day in Moab..
good luck
Bret
So, given a smaller diameter fan inserted into a given shroud, wouldn't a non-ringed fan then, have *more* eddy at the fan tips than a ringed fan? Since a ringed fan reverse flow is secondary to the shroud clearance, isn't it indeed more efficient? Since a non-ringed fan has both reverse flow and 'eddy' reverse flow at the tips of the blades, where a ringed fan only has reverse flow?
I think you are actually trying to speak to fan overlap ratio of the shroud. It might help to get either Tsubota or Shimada tests to understand the differences of fan blade mounting in relation to overlap ratio and reverse flow properties.
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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Exactly what I don't want to happen. I figure it is easier to turn the enigine off or pull over on the trail and drive out then to have to deal with that mess again and getting towed. I pegged the temp gauge getting back off of the small trail 1 minute in reverse once the water let go but it appears I didn't do any damage as she started up and drove nice in the driveway up to the garage before I pulled the radiator.
Dan, just trying to understand what you are saying in your measures, not your opinion. It's well documented that a ringed fan is more efficient at flowing air vs a non ringed type of the same diameter and blade count. So we are back to fitment. From your own data, the fitment of the ringed fan is also better. Then, your own data leads me to believe that the ringed fan is a better fit and has better performance.
Dan, your "opinion" of the ringed fan perceived airflow performance seems to have led you astray. Not a huge bone with me, I didn't agree with it a couple years ago when I was intimately familiar with radiator R&R and fan blade interference.
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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You were talking to fitment, not different sizes nor shapes, and once again you are absolutely wrong with your statement that fitment makes no matter. Just say you were wrong and move on man.