Could A 1997 Cruiser Run The Baja 1000?

[firetruck41]

Diesel and stick shift? That might be hard to find in salvage yards here in the US. If planning on importing one for racing, best start that process now, and if customs denies it, you lose the bond you posted.

You said the 80 wouldn't stand a chance, I showed you it was the class champion several times over. But yes, if you want to import a diesel to the US you will definitely have your work cut out, I have no plans to do so, so I stand no chance of losing any money. I can't really imagine where you would find a US salvage yard with a diesel 80, though I believe there are a few sources for engines/trannys/parts.

I also find it difficult to categorize the NA 80 as incapable of completing a similar event, because it isn't a diesel. The 1FZFE has proven very durable, and I don't see it as a weak link. The auto tranny is pretty durable as well, but I am not familiar with what effect a race like that would have on it.

 

[SUMOTOY]

You said the 80 wouldn't stand a chance, I showed you it was the class champion several times over. But yes, if you want to import a diesel to the US you will definitely have your work cut out, I have no plans to do so, so I stand no chance of losing any money. I can't really imagine where you would find a US salvage yard with a diesel 80, though I believe there are a few sources for engines/trannys/parts.

Per the parameters given I said nay, including the picture of Marks gasoline 80 he was going to temporarily convert. Factory backed and/or fully sponsored trucks wtih turbo diesels competing is completely different, and that's still just a lot of weight to try to gussett. I won't argue the point, there have been enough DNF's of 80's as well. They don't get the press though.

I also find it difficult to categorize the NA 80 as incapable of completing a similar event, because it isn't a diesel. The 1FZFE has proven very durable, and I don't see it as a weak link. The auto tranny is pretty durable as well, but I am not familiar with what effect a race like that would have on it.

Couple of issues. Gasoline quality in Baja sucks. The weak link is the trans, ask a few SC80 owners. They get really hot, and they also slip 2nd gear regularly. Racing beats the crap out of vehicles, offroad racing - brutally, btrepairedthat for many years. Since there is very little btdt on the 80 in SCORE, stocking Apollo 13 (what I call the Service Vehicles) with enough spares to finish the race could be really tough.

To get some idea, look at Prorally Subarus. I've watched many rally's where ProDrive has pulled multiple top entries to get enough transmission parts for their winning car to finish (that's after they've been thru all the spares). I say start small, like a Score 250 or 500, ProRally, offroad truck, something that gives a low investment strategy to what are the weak links to the 80. My bet is that a lot of other trucks can be competed for a lot less money.

But it's not my money either, and I thoroughly enjoy my 80 without any desire to take it to B1000... Mark needs a lot of volunteers from this list to really even consider this a reality at any price. Service on a 1000mile offroad course is brutal to the competitor AND his crew.

ST

 

[Walking Eagle]

There is a HUGE difference between running the Baja 1000, and running it competatively. We're talking about the former, not the later. Mad Mike (perhaps you know him Sumo from your prorally 'experience' - he won national production championship few years back with stud bug) ran a stock D-50 pick-up in pro-rally for a while. Cage, some shocks, and a welded rear. Other than safety stuff, that was about it. I crewed for him a couple of times, helped stab his motor, mount the fuel cell (not required, but wanted), even raced it in a rallycross after rolling my truck. Anyway, he ran that truck with just the basic prep. for safety. Was he competative for overall wins? Hell no. Did the truck hold up well enough to finish rally's? When he didn't try wrapping it around a tree, ya', it did.

Don't look at prorally subaru's for comparison, look at individual competators. Used to be split into Club and Pro, but I haven't followed it in years. Club guys were average guys, in average cars (no 400hp AWD turbo's), running the rally at far slower rates. Used to be on a rally weekend, there were two club rallys, one each day/night and the prorally was basically both of those run together.

Class 11 beetles. They run basically stock except for a cage. And they finish - though I don't think they run the whole 1000 cause of a total lack of overall speed.

Can a 80 run the baja 1000, with a gas engine and auto tranny? YES. Can it make it the full 1000 miles? Certainly. Will it be competative? No. Don't think that's the goal here. As long as the red haze doesn't take over and he doesn't suddenly think he's Ivan Stuart, shouldn't be that big of a deal really. Safety stuff first. Then the best shocks you can afford, and fit for the class rules. Some tube bumpers, couple of spares, a long range tank, and go have fun. Other than protecting the engine from dust, don't modify it. You don't need any more power than what it provides to finish, and any more and you'll just push other parts beyond their limits. Heck, get a '91/'92 3F. That'll keep you slow enough to keep from braking stuff. That's part of the key to class 11 beetles, they don't have enough power to break stuff!

Just don't get in your mind that you have to keep up with that buggy in front of you, no 30ft jumps, keep a swift pace, yet one you can maintain for hours on end, and send us pictures from the finish line.

 

[SUMOTOY]

There is a HUGE difference between running the Baja 1000, and running it competatively. We're talking about the former, not the later.
...
Just don't get in your mind that you have to keep up with that buggy in front of you, no 30ft jumps, keep a swift pace, yet one you can maintain for hours on end, and send us pictures from the finish line.

I'm speaking of *finishing* a 1000mile race, that's all heath, that IS the definition of running competitively. That's a lot more intense and difficult than finishing 200 stage miles in a ProRally. However, you have to agree that Mark finishing a ProRally (even a club rally) would be minimum experience for tackling one of the biggest in the world. Maybe even biting on a 250 Score Event.

The biggest problem with enthusiasm, is prep. It might be done on a shoe string budget with no experience. But prep is not just the vehicle, it's the strategy of every fastener, spare part, wire tie and service planning. Without that, which takes experience, the chance of driving and finishing the Baja 1000 has nothing to do with the 80.

I'm a realist, with a fair amount of motorsport competition experience, in driving and service, on track and off road. I started competition on a shoe string budget, doing co-efficient 3 (prior to the 'club' format of ProRally) events before considering National Events, culminating in a competitive finish in the Press On Regardless Rally - the Rally equivelent of the B1000 (back in the day when POR was 3 day event). I'm no expert, but I might temper Mark's enthusiasm with knowing well what causes DNF's. Spending 10's of thousands on a single event to have a DNF, sounds like a grand waste of time to me. Get a good return for the investment, isn't just in the truck.

My .02

Scott Justusson

 

[Walking Eagle]

I'm speaking of *finishing* a 1000mile race, that's all heath, that IS the definition of running competitively.

That is YOUR definition of running competitively. Running competitively means you're actually trying to win. If you're not trying to win, you're just running the race.

The return on the investment is running the Baja 1000. I thought that was pretty clear in his first post. Much more rewarding to say "I dreampt of running in the Baja 1000, and I did it." than to say "I dreampt of running the Baja 1000, so I ran a club rally instead"

Which actually isn't even possible since SCCA doesn't run Pro and Club rallys anymore, it's rallyamerica.

Re-read post #37 - second paragraph. He's not looking to be a top 10 finisher.

If you want the experience, do it, if you want the experience to be in an 80, do it in an 80, it's as likely as any to finish despite what Sumo may say.

 

[firetruck41]

Per the parameters given I said nay, including the picture of Marks gasoline 80 he was going to temporarily convert. Factory backed and/or fully sponsored trucks wtih turbo diesels competing is completely different, and that's still just a lot of weight to try to gussett. I won't argue the point, there have been enough DNF's of 80's as well. They don't get the press though.

Come on man, when you're wrong, just admit it. In your original post which I quoted you as being wrong, you were not referring to the "parameters given" (Marks 80 series running in the BAJA), you were referring to the Paris-Dakar (not mentioned by mark and not on the same continent or hemisphere as the Baja), and you were referring to 80s which ran there as support, but "wouldn't stand a chance" in the competition. I pointed out you were wrong, you are unable to admit it and now are trying to "rewrite" your history to make it seem as though you weren't wrong.

No doubt running a factory backed fully sponsored rig is different than running one that isn't, I don't think anyone has said anydifferent, so I don't know why you are bringing that up here.
If DNFs mean a same model vehicle can't participate, then I guess Chevy can't compete the Monte Carlo and Impala in NASCAR anymore.

Couple of issues. Gasoline quality in Baja sucks.

Fortunately the 80 series gas engine runs all over the world with horrible gas without much issue. And of course, all those other vehicles manage to run the Baja with gas as well (just guessing 90%+ competitors are running petrol?). So that point is basically moot.

The weak link is the trans, ask a few SC80 owners. They get really hot, and they also slip 2nd gear regularly. Racing beats the crap out of vehicles, offroad racing - brutally, btrepairedthat for many years. Since there is very little btdt on the 80 in SCORE, stocking Apollo 13 (what I call the Service Vehicles) with enough spares to finish the race could be really tough.

To get some idea, look at Prorally Subarus. I've watched many rally's where ProDrive has pulled multiple top entries to get enough transmission parts for their winning car to finish (that's after they've been thru all the spares). I say start small, like a Score 250 or 500, ProRally, offroad truck, something that gives a low investment strategy to what are the weak links to the 80. My bet is that a lot of other trucks can be competed for a lot less money.

But it's not my money either, and I thoroughly enjoy my 80 without any desire to take it to B1000... Mark needs a lot of volunteers from this list to really even consider this a reality at any price. Service on a 1000mile offroad course is brutal to the competitor AND his crew.

ST

Yup, it would take money and preparedness to run the Baja, but I'm not planning on doing it.

Mark- I do wish you the best of luck, it would be great to see an 80 compete in Baja, and the shorter races may be the best way to get into it. No doubt an 80 could finish but the cost may be prohibitive. Hope your research nets you some good information.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Come on man, when you're wrong, just admit it. In your original post which I quoted you as being wrong, you were not referring to the "parameters given" (Marks 80 series running in the BAJA), you were referring to the Paris-Dakar (not mentioned by mark and not on the same continent or hemisphere as the Baja), and you were referring to 80s which ran there as support, but "wouldn't stand a chance" in the competition. I pointed out you were wrong, you are unable to admit it and now are trying to "rewrite" your history to make it seem as though you weren't wrong.

Post 29, Paragraph 3, first 2 lines: "Can it be done? I suppose, but not under the guidelines you've established." IMO... not even a good chance of finishing.

No doubt running a factory backed fully sponsored rig is different than running one that isn't, I don't think anyone has said anydifferent, so I don't know why you are bringing that up here.
If DNFs mean a same model vehicle can't participate, then I guess Chevy can't compete the Monte Carlo and Impala in NASCAR anymore.

Hunh? My point is that without motorsport experience, a 1000 mile offroad race (just to finish) has very little prospect of anyhting but a DNF. Given Mark's first couple posts, a lot of research is needed to change those prospects.

Fortunately the 80 series gas engine runs all over the world with horrible gas without much issue. And of course, all those other vehicles manage to run the Baja with gas as well (just guessing 90%+ competitors are running petrol?). So that point is basically moot.

Have you ever filled up with gas in the Baja area? I have.

Yup, it would take money and preparedness to run the Baja, but I'm not planning on doing it.

I'm not either, but have enough motorsport competitioin experience to understand what is required to do so.

Mark- I do wish you the best of luck, it would be great to see an 80 compete in Baja, and the shorter races may be the best way to get into it. No doubt an 80 could finish but the cost may be prohibitive. Hope your research nets you some good information.

I'll copy that note to Mark.

Scott Justusson

 

[firetruck41]

Post 29, Paragraph 3, first 2 lines: "Can it be done? I suppose, but not under the guidelines you've established." IMO... not even a good chance of finishing.



Hunh? My point is that without motorsport experience, a 1000 mile offroad race (just to finish) has very little prospect of anyhting but a DNF. Given Mark's first couple posts, a lot of research is needed to change those prospects.

Please show me anywhere where I refer to "Post 29, Paragraph 3, first 2 lines" in my reply to your assertion that a 80 series could not do the Paris-Dakar? That "Post 29, Paragraph 3, first 2 lines" has nothing to do with the fact that you are wrong about something else.

Apparently you write a lot of words, but when held to account for them later, you meant something else. So, next time just try writing what you mean the first time, since you are unable to write the words "I was wrong".

Have you ever filled up with gas in the Baja area? I have.

No, but I am guessing there have been a few people who have run petrol engines in the Baja 1000, please correct me if I'm wrong. Did any of them finish the race?

I'll copy that note to Mark.

Scott Justusson

I think Mark is able to read just fine, and should be able to read my reply to him without you copying it again, but feel free.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Firetruck
If we google HDJ80 Paris Dakar, we can find wins and finishes, and I even found a HDJ80 P-D finisher for sale! If we google FJ80 or FZJ80 Paris Dakar or Baja 1000, I don't find any. Maybe you can.

Would it help if I said FJ80, as in what Mark was speaking to. Happy to edit my post to put FJ80 if it makes you happy, or my post more clear.

ST

 

[firetruck41]

Firetruck
If we google HDJ80 Paris Dakar, we can find wins and finishes, and I even found a HDJ80 P-D finisher for sale! If we google FJ80 or FZJ80 Paris Dakar or Baja 1000, I don't find any. Maybe you can.

Would it help if I said FJ80, as in what Mark was speaking to. Happy to edit my post to put FJ80 if it makes you happy, or my post more clear.

ST

It would change the meaning of your post, since elsewhere in the post you had been making reference to the 80 being to big and underpowered to participate in such a race. You seemed to be trying to support that position, with the claim that an 80 could not compete in P-D. Whether it is an FJ or HDJ does not have much effect on those aspects, but you are free to edit.

I would have approached the whole thing much differently if I were in your place.


What I would have written many posts ago if I my mistake was pointed out to me:
Looks like i was wrong about the 80 running in the Paris-Dakar, but I still don't think it is a very good idea to run a gas/auto tranny 80 in a race such as the Baja, especially without plenty of money and experience (BTDT, YMMV)

If you still can't see where you were wrong, I'm happy to talk about it in chat, otherwise I'm not inclined to continue this particular discussion in Mark's thread.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Have you ever filled up with gas in the Baja area?

Don’t think for a minute that racers count on the local Premex for fuel. Fuel is preplanned thru US racing fuel providers because you cannot bring fuel with you into Mexico. I have never seen any racer run anything but race fuel except in an emergency.

 

[Walking Eagle]

my gosh, have we been pulled into another Sumo "What I really said to prove that I'm not really wrong" thread?


FJ80 - Can it run the Baja 1000? Yes.

FJ80 - Is it any less likely to finish the Baja 1000 than any other vehicle you start with? NO. Probably more likely than many.

Baja 1000, is it the best choice for a first race? Who cares? That's not the question being asked.

Is the 80 the most ecconomical choice for off-road racing? No. And again, who cares? That's not what was asked either.


Yes, you can run baja 1000 in an 80 series, and will probably have as much a chance as finishing as an H2, or any other production class vehicle. And even if you don't finish, at least you went, and you ran, and you did it your way.


Change the question to "What's the most ecconomical way of getting into competative off-road racing?" Then the answer is going to be shorter races, Class 11 VW, or 5-1600, or perhaps a spec. classs if they have one. The beetle classes will be much cheaper as they are much more common, and there is more readily available stuff for racing them in that type of event. Not so much the 80 - you'll be breaking new ground. The answer you will also probably get is to buy something already built. And the answer is also going to be "GO TO A FORUM THAT DISCUSSES OFF-ROAD RACING" "THEY KNOW MORE ABOUT IT THAN ANYONE HERE"

Actually that last part is a good piece of advice. Go to one of those sites, and forums, and read all the newbie stuff, and FAQ, then post up a few questions about rules, and regs, once you've decided that you really do want to run the 80, come back to this forum with - "Ok. The rules say the cage has to do this. Are there any paticular things I should watch for when doing a cage to do this on an 80?" "The rules say I have to use stock radius arms, but am allowed gusseting. Where should I guesset and how much?" "The rules say such and such about shock mounting, what is best for the 80's weight with that kind of restriction?" ect. ect.

I knew much of what Mark had in the first post about aftermarket arms, and later on about exo-cage, ect. were not going to work out. Figured he'd learn that when he picked up a rule book.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

An 80 could finish the Baja given the right driver. Only about 50% 4 wheeled vehicles finish the Baja (500 or 1000) on any given year. The biggest problem I see is time. Checkpoints close in a given time and if you don’t make to the check point you DNF.

Racing the Baja is more about survival. Its more a race against Baja then other racers. It all about knowing when to go fast and more so when not too and a lot of luck.

Two things you hear a lot at Baja
1-You cannot win if you don’t finish.
2 The will to win is 2nd by the willingness to prepare to win.

The most common decal on a racer dash is "THINK"

Been there done that but didn’t win

 

[Bluetribal]

My buddy and I have always talked about doing Baja with his Tundra but we were going to start with the 250 then do the mods and give the 1,000 a shot. In Feb we were down there to see the 250 and we decided instead of going against race traffic like everyone else for 8 miles back to the hwy. we would take the course to the finish line the last 25 miles as the sun was setting. I was following my buddy in his Tundra and I had a rig with 3 guys and full camping gear and we had a blast running the last 25 miles. We even helped a red H1 on the trail and he ended up winning his class. I gotta tell ya those ruts get pretty freekin' deep for a stock rig on 285's. I think those were the first scratches in my Slee Skid Plate.
I would run it in stock class since sportsman is at the back of the pack as Boston said. The main thing you would have problems with would be the silt beds as far as the course in concerned.

 

[concretejungle]

only thing i can add to this discussion is you will need a turbo, minimum for this pig to move across the desert at a decent speed.

 

[SUMOTOY]

An 80 could finish the Baja given the right driver. Only about 50% 4 wheeled vehicles finish the Baja (500 or 1000) on any given year. The biggest problem I see is time. Checkpoints close in a given time and if you don’t make to the check point you DNF.

Racing the Baja is more about survival. Its more a race against Baja then other racers. It all about knowing when to go fast and more so when not too and a lot of luck.

Two things you hear a lot at Baja
1-You cannot win if you don’t finish.
2 The will to win is 2nd by the willingness to prepare to win.

The most common decal on a racer dash is "THINK"

Been there done that but didn’t win

Good point Phil... Bogey times to checkpoints really suck when the Service Crew is under the gun. Part of what I enjoyed in being Crew Chief in a well prepped ProRally Team was how little time you had to diagnose and repair in service before DNF. DNF's to Service bogeys also has a finality to it that really sucks.

At the FIA/ProRally event in Tennesee a few years ago, we DNF'd to service bogey, and created quite a stir with the organizers advocating that we run be allowed to run the next day as "also rans" for the experience. FIA said absolutely no way (Paris Dakar is the same way), SCCA said ok, but immediately after that event ruled against post bogey runs (for no points).

When you put all that money and time forth and miss due to a bogey time, it shows how expensive offroad motorsport can be. Mark, experience that, either as a driver OR as crew, before you spend a dime on the "thought" of campaigning an 80. I also have a ProRally buddy that always liked to compare stage times, but he DNF'd more than he finished. I used to remind him, other than the obvious, his stage times were indeed faster.

Good prep of the 80 isn't rocket science. Good experience and knowns to what breaks, and driver experience is what's missing here IMO. Sounds expensive whatever toyota did with the HDJ80 in the past.

ST

 

[Beowulf]

A guy that I used to work with had a plaque on his desk that said:

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bull s***.

Dunno why that image returned after all these years but it did.



-B-

 

[Boston Mangler]

only thing i can add to this discussion is you will need a turbo, minimum for this pig to move across the desert at a decent speed.

Not allowed in any class the 80 would fit in

 

[82-40]

I think this man’s statement sums it up pretty well. "even the year we didn't make check point 2, was better then the years we didn't run at all........"You might not get to cover the whole coarse but I bet you will have a great time getting as far as you can! Get with a RI and have them import a HJ80/81 (what ever it is that you want to race) from Canada. You will be using it for “off road purposes only” AND you will be turning it into a “race car” YOU are not trying to bring in a race car. You will not be able to get it reg. for street use but so what you want to race it. From that point on you will have a trailer queen that wont be afraid to get dirty or a parts car your choice or better yet swap every thing to a domestic frame when you are done and do it again!

 

[SUMOTOY]

I think this man’s statement sums it up pretty well. "even the year we didn't make check point 2, was better then the years we didn't run at all........"You might not get to cover the whole coarse but I bet you will have a great time getting as far as you can! Get with a RI and have them import a HJ80/81 (what ever it is that you want to race) from Canada. You will be using it for “off road purposes only” AND you will be turning it into a “race car” YOU are not trying to bring in a race car. You will not be able to get it reg. for street use but so what you want to race it. From that point on you will have a trailer queen that wont be afraid to get dirty or a parts car your choice or better yet swap every thing to a domestic frame when you are done and do it again!

Buy a rulebook? Get the customs forms for importation of a non cert vehicle? Get the forms from Mark's Secretary of State regarding non cert vehicles? What's now the budget for a tow vehicle and trailer (since it's now strictly offroad)? Make it thru a 250 first? Again, I see multiplication factors involved in the inital budget that focus on the (potential) competitor more than the machine. The orginal post answer is yes. The conditions attached to that answer start to exponentially multiply in cost and complexity, to the point where I responded no to the question given the conditions...

My .02

Scott Justusson