boozewz
SILVER Star
Much appreciated Tom. Will get cracking on it tomorrow and post up what we find
Brake master cylinder w/front discs - valve or no?
- Thread starter ianfotheringham
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How'd you get on?
I was just cleaning up a couple of master cylinders from my spares stash and I think they have the same sort of "check valves" as you have:
Here's a close-up view:
Toyota calls them "check valves" and from what I can see they allow free outflow and somewhat-restricted inflow. (They don't appear to stop flow in any direction and neither do they appear to maintain any "residual pressure" with either direction of flow.)
So if I were you I'd be happy to leave them as they are (and not punch-out the internals) for a disc conversion).
I was just cleaning up a couple of master cylinders from my spares stash and I think they have the same sort of "check valves" as you have:
Here's a close-up view:
Toyota calls them "check valves" and from what I can see they allow free outflow and somewhat-restricted inflow. (They don't appear to stop flow in any direction and neither do they appear to maintain any "residual pressure" with either direction of flow.)
So if I were you I'd be happy to leave them as they are (and not punch-out the internals) for a disc conversion).
So just doing some research for my own account and found that as regards @boozewz question regarding the master cylinder, Aisin still has a front disc one available - part number BMT-061. Would sub for part numbers 47201-60130, 47201-60210, 47201-60220.
My question is regarding @Racer65 brake booster. Everything I have read indicates that swapping over the brake master cylinder or pulling the residual valve should be enough to go from drum to discs (e.g., the booster does not need to be replaced). Given that racer65's booster looks very similar to the non-US FJ40's with drum brakes (p/n 44610-60190), can we get lucky enough to use the nice one racer65 has instead of rebuilding the factory one?
Crappy pic of the one on (off) my truck.
-Geoff
My question is regarding @Racer65 brake booster. Everything I have read indicates that swapping over the brake master cylinder or pulling the residual valve should be enough to go from drum to discs (e.g., the booster does not need to be replaced). Given that racer65's booster looks very similar to the non-US FJ40's with drum brakes (p/n 44610-60190), can we get lucky enough to use the nice one racer65 has instead of rebuilding the factory one?
Crappy pic of the one on (off) my truck.
-Geoff
I think @lostmarbles has some experience with this question. All I can tell you is that my booster is Aisin spec 44610-60030. Being in the U.S. market, I have never come across a 44610-60190. However, I have every reason to believe my booster will work for any FJ40 with drum brakes.
I have no personal experience of swapping around boosters and masters or even swapping front drums to front disks but here's my opinion..............
Drum brakes require more fluid and so the master for a front-drum 40-series must be capable of moving more fluid.
Disk brakes require less fluid and so the master for front-disk 40-series doesn't need to move as much fluid.
I believe much (if not all) of the extra fluid for front drums is accomplished by having a longer master-cylinder and extra piston travel (but possibly there's a diameter change also/instead?).
An increase in master-length would mean the matching booster (for a front-drum 40-series) would need to be capable of more movement too. So I suspect this is why the boosters fitted to front-drum 40-series were always different to those fitted to front-disk 40-series..
Now Geoff, you want to fit booster 44610-60030 in place of booster 44610-60190 if I'm reading you correctly.
Both of these boosters are definitely for "front-drum-40series" with 60030 being used right up to July 1980 on FJ4#, FJ55. HJ45 and BJ4# front-drum models (including my 1979 BJ40) and with 60190 being used on diesel front-drum 40-series thereafter.
I have a feeling the bore-diameter and/or bore-length of the brake master may have changed in August 1980 and that this may have prompted the matching booster change.
This is how long my master is for the 60030:
And these are my bore dimensions:
And this is from my spares stash, supposedly from a BJ42, and if so, I think it should have run the 60190 booster:
Does your master look like the one above Geoff? And if it does, what is the dia & length of its bore?
If they match mine (1" x 9 1/4") then we probably need to look at the stud pattern for booster-to-master and booster-to-firewall.. (I wonder if they changed?)
Heck.. Or am I looking at this too deeply now?
(I'm thinking if all those things are OK then you could probably run Racer's 60030 instead of 60190..)
PS. I understand, as you do Geoff, that "drum-front-end booster/master-combos" can be retained when converting to front disks. (You'll just end up with "surplus capacity for fluid-movement" which is never a bad thing.)
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Geoff,
Go back and read through @boozewz's Troopy thread and his conversion to front discs. He retained the "drum-front-end" master and removed his residual valve and still found the front discs to not really be that great. He had to add a proportioning valve (a Toyota one salved from a junk yard) to get his discs to work properly. @Racer65 sells a proportioning valve new that is meant to mount the same as the stock Toyota one.
I'm gathering the parts I need to go front discs as well and from all the info I've gathered here... and seeing boozewz's experience... a proportioning valve is needed if you are going to use the "drum-front-end" master with discs in the front.
Go back and read through @boozewz's Troopy thread and his conversion to front discs. He retained the "drum-front-end" master and removed his residual valve and still found the front discs to not really be that great. He had to add a proportioning valve (a Toyota one salved from a junk yard) to get his discs to work properly. @Racer65 sells a proportioning valve new that is meant to mount the same as the stock Toyota one.
I'm gathering the parts I need to go front discs as well and from all the info I've gathered here... and seeing boozewz's experience... a proportioning valve is needed if you are going to use the "drum-front-end" master with discs in the front.
@Honger that is interesting. I may have to go pull that part, but I was also thinking about swapping to the front disc master instead of pulling the residual valve. Might not be bad to have the part just in case...
I need to get my current master from the shop so I can measure it and compare it to the one @lostmarbles had above - just haven't had a chance to yet.
-Geoff
I need to get my current master from the shop so I can measure it and compare it to the one @lostmarbles had above - just haven't had a chance to yet.
-Geoff
Alright - so I have made some progress today.
First, the brake booster - I pulled my actual booster and it is showing as part number 44610-60160, so I was initially wrong as to what I had.
It appears to be zinc/cad plated instead of painted. It may actually clean up fairly well. I may just buff it and then clearcoat it.
-Geoff
First, the brake booster - I pulled my actual booster and it is showing as part number 44610-60160, so I was initially wrong as to what I had.
It appears to be zinc/cad plated instead of painted. It may actually clean up fairly well. I may just buff it and then clearcoat it.
-Geoff
Next the brake master.
Here are pics of what I had on the truck and the new one I sourced from Toyota. Both are 7/8" bore per the info cast into the body. @lostmarbles how do you measure the bore - do you have to take it apart or do you just measure the length?
My existing brake master did not look like some of the "all drum" ones I had previously seen with the outlets pointing up as can be seen below.
I sourced brake master 47201-60210 as the replacement master.
-Geoff
Here are pics of what I had on the truck and the new one I sourced from Toyota. Both are 7/8" bore per the info cast into the body. @lostmarbles how do you measure the bore - do you have to take it apart or do you just measure the length?
My existing brake master did not look like some of the "all drum" ones I had previously seen with the outlets pointing up as can be seen below.
I sourced brake master 47201-60210 as the replacement master.
-Geoff
Lastly the proportioning valve. At @Honger suggestion, I reviewed @boozewz page and went back out and sourced the proportioning valve off the FJ62 that I pulled the 5F and disc knuckles from. It has a different shape than other proportioning valves I had seen before.
Apparently common to all proportioning valves is that the arrows on the valve point to the rear circuit.
I ran the bolts and bracket through the ultrasonic cleaner and they came out well. My plan is to close up all openings and then beadblast, prime and paint the proportioning valve. I may leave the bracket as-is and clearcoat it.
Alternative is to use the new proportioning valve still available from Toyota. But from what I have read, as long as the fluid looks good, these things rarely go wrong.
-Geoff
Apparently common to all proportioning valves is that the arrows on the valve point to the rear circuit.
I ran the bolts and bracket through the ultrasonic cleaner and they came out well. My plan is to close up all openings and then beadblast, prime and paint the proportioning valve. I may leave the bracket as-is and clearcoat it.
Alternative is to use the new proportioning valve still available from Toyota. But from what I have read, as long as the fluid looks good, these things rarely go wrong.
-Geoff
Well your mistake over the booster part numbers makes little difference Geoff. Research tells me 60190 substituted 60160 so they must essentially be the same "front-drum single booster" and both began use in August 1980 for the 40-series. (The 60190 model has more of a diesel connection whereas the 60160 has more of an FJ connection as far as factory-installation is concerned from what I see.)
As for your master, that model (based on the part number of your new replacement) is a match for your booster (as you would expect) for petrol/gasoline FJ-40series from Aug 1980.
So I think the vertical outlets may just be an August 1980 onwards DIESEL feature.
I'm surprised you want to replace your booster given the condition of your old one. If it was me I'd mask over the sticker, paint it silver and put a bit of vaseline or silicone lube on the pushrod to keep that master-side seal working well.
My sticker was too far gone so I removed it but here's mine painted:
This original booster is still performing flawlessly for me.
PS. Yes I had the internals removed when I measured the bore on my master.
So it looks like Toyota reduced the bore diameter in August 1980 from 1" to 7/8". We know they did do quite a bit of brake modification work then of course because on some models at that time they removed the transmission brake and heavily modified the rear brakes to accommodate the more traditional (car-like) handbrake that acts on the rear drums.
As for your master, that model (based on the part number of your new replacement) is a match for your booster (as you would expect) for petrol/gasoline FJ-40series from Aug 1980.
So I think the vertical outlets may just be an August 1980 onwards DIESEL feature.
I'm surprised you want to replace your booster given the condition of your old one. If it was me I'd mask over the sticker, paint it silver and put a bit of vaseline or silicone lube on the pushrod to keep that master-side seal working well.
My sticker was too far gone so I removed it but here's mine painted:
This original booster is still performing flawlessly for me.
PS. Yes I had the internals removed when I measured the bore on my master.
So it looks like Toyota reduced the bore diameter in August 1980 from 1" to 7/8". We know they did do quite a bit of brake modification work then of course because on some models at that time they removed the transmission brake and heavily modified the rear brakes to accommodate the more traditional (car-like) handbrake that acts on the rear drums.
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Well I wasn't necessarily planning on replacing the booster - I just wanted to have a backup plan for if/when it went out. I am going to try to polish it up and see what it looks like afterwards. Fallback will be painting it - the sticker is a bit loose already - may be able to get it to come off and then reattach it later.
-Geoff
-Geoff
Well, this thread seems like a good place to pick up discussion of non-USA market brake masters, boosters, and parts availability... as well as viable substitutions.
I've got a 77 FJ40 with front drums and my parts break down as follows:
Brake Master 47201-60030 (tandem booster with two reservoirs and the brake warning light switches)
Brake Booster 44610-60030 (the same booster that @Racer65 now manufactures)
My booster is actually in pretty good shape... a bit dirty but functions just fine.
My master on the other hand requires double-pumping on the brakes at times and I've got fluid passing from one reservoir to the other over time. I use a syringe to relocate the fluid from one reservoir to the other every couple months.
The problem is that my master is discontinued... as is the rebuild kit.
Going through this thread and using ToyoDIY I've surmised the following.
@boozewz has an '82 FJ45 and his parts should be:
Brake Master 47201-60110 (tandem booster with one reservoir)
Brake Booster 44610-60160 (single diaphragm)
Can you confirm those are your parts?
@jgeoffr has an '8X FJ40 and his parts are:
Brake Master 47201-60100 (tandem booster with one reservoir)
Brake Booster 44610-60160 (same as boozewz)
@lostmarbles has a '79 BJ40 and his parts are:
Brake Master 47201-????? (tandem booster with one reservoir)
Brake Booster 44610-60030 (same as mine)
Can you confirm you have the same master as jgeoffr?
Now jgeoffr, you are using a 47201-60210 to replace your master. I'm assuming because your old one is shot and discontinued. Is that so?
What I'm wondering is if I can use 47201-60210 to replace my master as well? I don't think, from the info in this thread and deduction off of ToyoDIY I can necessarily jump to that conclusion.
Any bright thoughts from you guys?
I've got a 77 FJ40 with front drums and my parts break down as follows:
Brake Master 47201-60030 (tandem booster with two reservoirs and the brake warning light switches)
Brake Booster 44610-60030 (the same booster that @Racer65 now manufactures)
My booster is actually in pretty good shape... a bit dirty but functions just fine.
My master on the other hand requires double-pumping on the brakes at times and I've got fluid passing from one reservoir to the other over time. I use a syringe to relocate the fluid from one reservoir to the other every couple months.
The problem is that my master is discontinued... as is the rebuild kit.
Going through this thread and using ToyoDIY I've surmised the following.
@boozewz has an '82 FJ45 and his parts should be:
Brake Master 47201-60110 (tandem booster with one reservoir)
Brake Booster 44610-60160 (single diaphragm)
Can you confirm those are your parts?
@jgeoffr has an '8X FJ40 and his parts are:
Brake Master 47201-60100 (tandem booster with one reservoir)
Brake Booster 44610-60160 (same as boozewz)
@lostmarbles has a '79 BJ40 and his parts are:
Brake Master 47201-????? (tandem booster with one reservoir)
Brake Booster 44610-60030 (same as mine)
Can you confirm you have the same master as jgeoffr?
Now jgeoffr, you are using a 47201-60210 to replace your master. I'm assuming because your old one is shot and discontinued. Is that so?
What I'm wondering is if I can use 47201-60210 to replace my master as well? I don't think, from the info in this thread and deduction off of ToyoDIY I can necessarily jump to that conclusion.
Any bright thoughts from you guys?
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beno is the one who told me that my master, and it's superseding part 47201-60031, were discontinued. He also told me I should check with an Aisin distributor on whether or not it's available from Aisin direct. No Aisin distributor here in the region unfortunately. However, CruiserParts has the Aisin master I need.
That said, I'm still curious if I could use a booster like 60210 as it's readily available here in the region without having to special order and ship.
That said, I'm still curious if I could use a booster like 60210 as it's readily available here in the region without having to special order and ship.
I am on vacation right now so I don't have access to all of my stuff (or any of the parts) but I purcahsed the 47201-60210 master cylinder as it is the listed part for front disc brakes since I am doing the front disc conversion. I did not investigate the availability of the drum version of the master cylinder from Toyota KSA because I knew I wanted to swap. If I were to stay with front drums then the part number for the master cylinder would be 47207-60010. For both, these are single reservoir masters. I don't know if there is any issue or concern with going from a dual reservoir to a single reservoir, but to me it doesn't seem like there should be.
I do not think that the 47201-60210 would work for your application as it is specifically for front disc brakes and therefore would not have the needed front residual valve.
For your truck, the 47201-60031 does appear to be the same as the Aisin BMT-060 part, so that is certainly an option. The 47207-60010 single reservoir looks to be the same as the Aisin BMT-040.
So if you are OK with going from a dual reservoir to a single then first I would check for the 47201-60010 from Toyota and then as a fallback, look to source the BMT-060 or BMT-040 as appropriate. Otherwise go straight for the BMT-060.
Hope this helps.
-Geoff
I do not think that the 47201-60210 would work for your application as it is specifically for front disc brakes and therefore would not have the needed front residual valve.
For your truck, the 47201-60031 does appear to be the same as the Aisin BMT-060 part, so that is certainly an option. The 47207-60010 single reservoir looks to be the same as the Aisin BMT-040.
So if you are OK with going from a dual reservoir to a single then first I would check for the 47201-60010 from Toyota and then as a fallback, look to source the BMT-060 or BMT-040 as appropriate. Otherwise go straight for the BMT-060.
Hope this helps.
-Geoff
47201-60010 is an older single-cylinder brake master. I need tandem cylinder. Did you mean 47201-60100? That would the single-reservoir, tandem cylinder... which I believe is what you currently have in yours.
The 47201-60100 was replaced by the 47207-60010 according to my informtion. Note the "7" instead of the "1". It's a bit confusing on Toyota's part.
-Geoff
-Geoff
boozewz
SILVER Star
I have converted to front disk brakes on my 72 FJ40, now with a front axle assembly out of a 78.
The brake master cylinder was leaking and needed to be replaced anyway so I replaced the single reservoir 1972 master with a dual reservoir master from an 80 series Landcruiser without ABS, 1993 to 1994 also used on 93 - 95 4 runner, pickup & T-100. Centric part number 130-44720.
I was prepared to also add a proportioning valve but as found elsewhere on this site it is not needed.
If I recall, there may have been some shimming when bolting to my early brake booster, Running 2 years + now without any issues.
Some air must vent out of your booster as the diaphragm moves but if it continues to flow with vacuum pulling to the intake manifold, there is a leak somewhere.
The brake master cylinder was leaking and needed to be replaced anyway so I replaced the single reservoir 1972 master with a dual reservoir master from an 80 series Landcruiser without ABS, 1993 to 1994 also used on 93 - 95 4 runner, pickup & T-100. Centric part number 130-44720.
I was prepared to also add a proportioning valve but as found elsewhere on this site it is not needed.
If I recall, there may have been some shimming when bolting to my early brake booster, Running 2 years + now without any issues.
Some air must vent out of your booster as the diaphragm moves but if it continues to flow with vacuum pulling to the intake manifold, there is a leak somewhere.
