Bolt on turbo kit (11 Viewers)

[scottryana]

No, using engine coolant is a terrible idea. Even the coolest cars will still run 170f coolant, it makes zero sense to try and cool an intake air charge with 170f water.

It makes even less sense when the outside air temp drops a little. When the ambient temp is say 40f it can pull a lot of heat out of the heat exchanger.

If your intake air temp is 190f (not likely with this kit) would you want 180f coolant to try and cool it off, or would you want 70f water? Simple really.

No way this kit will be altering/modifying the looming monster in the back reaches of every OCD mudder's mind, the factory cooling system. Bad idea.

Separate system allows anyone to use with no modification it if they choose, or try their own thing at their own risk.

 

[Saito]

Some of the latest and greatest I/C systems use the A/C to chill incoming air.

 

[Mandrake]

No, using engine coolant is a terrible idea. Even the coolest cars will still run 170f coolant, it makes zero sense to try and cool an intake air charge with 170f water.

It makes even less sense when the outside air temp drops a little. When the ambient temp is say 40f it can pull a lot of heat out of the heat exchanger.

If your intake air temp is 190f (not likely with this kit) would you want 180f coolant to try and cool it off, or would you want 70f water? Simple really.

Preamble: I'm not arguing against divorced systems at all, nor am I arguing for an air to air setup. You guys are doing it how I would, but living with the siamesed system in my Jaguar, I see both sides of the conversation. I'm not trying to tell you what to do; I was just throwing it out there and like I said- "maybe." You guys are the real engineers here and are going to do what you see fit, anyway.

But as for your temperature comment, I thought the same thing too back when all I ever messed with were air to air setups. But after monitoring my IAT2s for the past year in everything from 22°F to 100°F ambient and never seeing the delta between the two stay at about 45°F, I started to wonder. When I did the pulleys, heat exchanger and tune I asked the guy about divorcing the systems and he said exactly what I posted previously- that the gains are not there. He said it was because there is no flow of water between the two systems; only pressure fluctuations due to thermal expansion, and because the intercooler put far less heat into their part of the system than the engine while having a relatively larger heat exchanger given the amount of heat generated. I still wasn't 100% on board because I thought that there still has to be heat and fluid transfer through that 1/2" coupling, so I called a few other tuners and they all said the same thing with the caveat that the Mercedes guys do have some luck with it, but mainly because their systems are such garbage to begin with. Mind you, these arent some kids working out of a storage unit putting ebay turbos on their buddies Civics here... these are established, renowned brick and mortar tuners that make a living making $100,000+ cars go faster, and having them all say the same thing is good enough for me. With the pulleys, I roughly doubled the boost over stock on my Jaguar that uses an Eaton TVS R1900 supercharger, and the delta between ambient and IAT2 is still a just hair under 5°F more than stock on the track and in the canyons. It heats up around town, but that's a lack of airflow issue from not having a pusher fan (an issue you guys won't have), and it still doesn't get close to my coolant temps, which are consistently between 195°F and 225°F.

70°F water? Not unless it's 55°F out and you haven't boosted yet. You'll never get the water below ambient, even if the compressor, intercooler and heat exchanger were 100% thermally efficient. without seeing the map or knowing core sizes, flow rates, ect., I'm spitballing here but figure about 75% for the compressor, 90% for the intercooler and 85% for the heat exchanger if you get good stuff... you're still going to have IATs +40°F over ambient. It's just how it is with these things. The great part about W2A is that they have a much higher thermal capacity and are much slower to change temps from the fluctuations in post-compressor temps. Consistent temps are good. So is a reservoir to throw ice in if you want to take a 6500 lb. pig drag racing.

But if you wouldnt mind... please satiate my curiosity- what have you done to calculate the proper heat exchanger and intercooler sizes as well as the water pipe diameter and pump flow rate requirements. That's a genuine, not-a-pissing-match question. You guys are putting a lot of work into this and really sound like you have your ducks in a row, so I'm just assuming you've covered those bases already.

 

[scottryana]

There are a lot of errors in your post. I won't spend time correcting all of them since they don't apply but -

My water temp is only roughly 20* over ambient running 15psi.

If there is no water flow between the two systems they are essential already divorced. There would be no heat exchanger in a system that uses engine coolant the heat exchanger would be the radiator.

Below is the diagram for Jaguar's system. It is a separate A/W intercooler, there is a separate heat exchanger the only thing in common is the expansion tank.

Like I said I do not know of any gas powered cars that use the engine coolant circuit for the air to water intercooler.

Preamble: I'm not arguing against divorced systems at all, nor am I arguing for an air to air setup. You guys are doing it how I would, but living with the siamesed system in my Jaguar, I see both sides of the conversation. I'm not trying to tell you what to do; I was just throwing it out there and like I said- "maybe." You guys are the real engineers here and are going to do what you see fit, anyway.

But as for your temperature comment, I thought the same thing too back when all I ever messed with were air to air setups. But after monitoring my IAT2s for the past year in everything from 22°F to 100°F ambient and never seeing the delta between the two stay at about 45°F, I started to wonder. When I did the pulleys, heat exchanger and tune I asked the guy about divorcing the systems and he said exactly what I posted previously- that the gains are not there. He said it was because there is no flow of water between the two systems; only pressure fluctuations due to thermal expansion, and because the intercooler put far less heat into their part of the system than the engine while having a relatively larger heat exchanger given the amount of heat generated. I still wasn't 100% on board because I thought that there still has to be heat and fluid transfer through that 1/2" coupling, so I called a few other tuners and they all said the same thing with the caveat that the Mercedes guys do have some luck with it, but mainly because their systems are such garbage to begin with. Mind you, these arent some kids working out of a storage unit putting ebay turbos on their buddies Civics here... these are established, renowned brick and mortar tuners that make a living making $100,000+ cars go faster, and having them all say the same thing is good enough for me. With the pulleys, I roughly doubled the boost over stock on my Jaguar that uses an Eaton TVS R1900 supercharger, and the delta between ambient and IAT2 is still a just hair under 5°F more than stock on the track and in the canyons. It heats up around town, but that's a lack of airflow issue from not having a pusher fan (an issue you guys won't have), and it still doesn't get close to my coolant temps, which are consistently between 195°F and 225°F.

70°F water? Not unless it's 55°F out and you haven't boosted yet. You'll never get the water below ambient, even if the compressor, intercooler and heat exchanger were 100% thermally efficient. without seeing the map or knowing core sizes, flow rates, ect., I'm spitballing here but figure about 75% for the compressor, 90% for the intercooler and 85% for the heat exchanger if you get good stuff... you're still going to have IATs +40°F over ambient. It's just how it is with these things. The great part about W2A is that they have a much higher thermal capacity and are much slower to change temps from the fluctuations in post-compressor temps. Consistent temps are good. So is a reservoir to throw ice in if you want to take a 6500 lb. pig drag racing.

But if you wouldnt mind... please satiate my curiosity- what have you done to calculate the proper heat exchanger and intercooler sizes as well as the water pipe diameter and pump flow rate requirements. That's a genuine, not-a-pissing-match question. You guys are putting a lot of work into this and really sound like you have your ducks in a row, so I'm just assuming you've covered those bases already.

 

[Mandrake]

Oh! I see now where the disconnect was. My apologies. I didn't mean plumbing in the engine coolant to flow through the intercooler before it goes through the engine... if that's what you thought I meant, I can totally see why you'd say hell no. I meant to siamesed like siamesed twins- two people joined at the hip or ankle or ear or whatever, but that don't share much if anything in the way of... ah fck it... you get what I'm saying. Anyway, I meant to join them the way the Jaguar circuit is siamesed, that the IC circuit only uses the engine circuit as a way to avoid two expansion tanks. However, that diagram is a bit different than mine. That must be a 4.0L? My 5.0L has a 5" long hose that connects the cold side of the heat exchanger to the cold side of the radiator with nothing from the IC circuit going to the expansion tank.

Either way, sorry about the confusion. It made sense in my head when I typed it.

 

[scottryana]

Yep that is the 4.2L not the 5.0L, but same idea, it has it's own pump, it's own heat exchanger, etc, but it is siamesed to use the expansion tank.

You have to remember as a car manufacturer you have to build to the least technical owners. They are using engine coolant in the system because it won't freeze. In my system I am using windshield washer fluid but I could just as easily use coolant, except I actually use mine for windshield washing as well. The closer you can get to 100% water the more heat carrying capacity of the system. If you wanted a better operating system in your Jaguar, you could divorce the system and in the summer run 100% RO water and you would see cooler IAT temps. Probably not worth the hassle but since I could design my system from the ground up I didn't want any compromises.

Oh! I see now where the disconnect was. My apologies. I didn't mean plumbing in the engine coolant to flow through the intercooler before it goes through the engine... if that's what you thought I meant, I can totally see why you'd say hell no. I meant to siamesed like siamesed twins- two people joined at the hip or ankle or ear or whatever, but that don't share much if anything in the way of... ah fck it... you get what I'm saying. Anyway, I meant to join them the way the Jaguar circuit is siamesed, that the IC circuit only uses the engine circuit as a way to avoid two expansion tanks. However, that diagram is a bit different than mine. That must be a 4.0L? My 5.0L has a 5" long hose that connects the cold side of the heat exchanger to the cold side of the radiator with nothing from the IC circuit going to the expansion tank.

Either way, sorry about the confusion. It made sense in my head when I typed it.

 

[Mandrake]

There are a lot of errors in your post. I won't spend time correcting all of them since they don't apply but -

I don't claim to know more than the next guy and I can handle being shown I'm wrong, but I don't really appreciate backhanded comments, fella. If you've got all the answers, why don't you post up some links showing me where I'm wrong.

 

[scottryana]

Now that you have gone back and changed your posts, I don't have to.

And it wasn't a back handed comment. I really do not want to go through and nitpick posts. Especially those that are not applicable in this thread, but yes I do see 70f water temps, I did not say air temps. I have a 6 gallon water tank and it is never 45 degrees above ambient. Even in 90 degree temps I only see 110f intake air temps and the water temp in the tank is only 95f. When you completely divorce the systems you are right that you can not get it below ambient but you can certainly do better than 45f above ambient.

I don't claim to know more than the next guy and I can handle being shown I'm wrong, but I don't really appreciate backhanded comments, fella. If you've got all the answers, why don't you post up some links showing me where I'm wrong.

 

[Mandrake]

I have not changed my posts. Show me a screen shot where it says it was edited, please. Are we talking spelling/grammatical errors, or technical errors? I don't care about the spelling because I'm on my phone and it changes half of what I say, anyway. But if it's something technical, set me straight, man. We're all here to learn.

If it wasn't meant as being backhanded, my apologies for taking it as such. I don't see it as nitpicking. If I'm wrong, I want to be corrected. Shoot me a pm if you want.

 

[BILT4ME]

I have not changed my posts. Show me a screen shot where it says it was edited, please. Are we talking spelling/grammatical errors, or technical errors? I don't care about the spelling because I'm on my phone and it changes half of what I say, anyway. But if it's something technical, set me straight, man. We're all here to learn.

If it wasn't meant as being backhanded, my apologies for taking it as such. I don't see it as nitpicking. If I'm wrong, I want to be corrected. Shoot me a pm if you want.

Go to these two threads and read his journey. Then you'll understand. Please read every page.

LX450 where to start!
80 series where to start! Again....

Comments not intended to be snarky. Only educational.

 

[NLXTACY]

I don't claim to know more than the next guy and I can handle being shown I'm wrong, but I don't really appreciate backhanded comments, fella. If you've got all the answers, why don't you post up some links showing me where I'm wrong.

Has nothing to do with this thread and would benefit from a new thread. Zero need to create confusion that Ryan and myself will be forced to explain away months from now as people read up on this upgrade. I'd rather NOT have to explain why I'm not going the Jaguar route :eyeroll:

 

[Dragos80]

Hey Joey, I know why you won't do it. Can I tell him, please? Can I?

 

[Funner]

They are 2 different components. In an Air to Water intercooler you also have a heat exchanger that cools the water.

Different engine but basically what you are looking at.

Now I get it, thanks for this post.

 

[LXDOC]

Hope the intercooler kit planned will also work with the S/C.

 

[TYM4FUN]

Ok, ok....I will accept your first complete kit for free and use my vehicle as a guinea pig. I will pm you my contact info...

-Paul

 

[Qball]

Hey Joey, I know why you won't do it. Can I tell him, please? Can I?

JAGUAR system.......think the word Jaguar should be clear enough reason for not going that route.

 

[NLXTACY]

Hope the intercooler kit planned will also work with the S/C.

Tried hard to make the placement of the turbo to intake relatively similar to that of the SC. My goal is one size fits not but I’m not far enough to know 100%.

 

[Enders]

Speaking of coolant and the factory cooling system... any word on when the late model heater control valve may be back in stock? I’m reconditioning my cooling system while I wait for boost.

 

[NLXTACY]

Speaking of coolant and the factory cooling system... any word on when the late model heater control valve may be back in stock? I’m reconditioning my cooling system while I wait for boost.

Just came in today

 

[Enders]

And just like that, I’m broke again!