ASCO Locking Hubs - trouble reassembling

[lostmarbles]

By "gasket", are you referring to the thing that looks like an O-ring in SA0321 here VV?

Edit: From what DVP7070 says above ... I guess so

In the absence of special instructions about its orientation in my pdf file, I'd say the "bevel" may be just "impressed on the ring" by pressure after installation... But you never know.. He may well be onto something there

another thought ....You're not jamming the spring/ball somehow?

 

[DPV7070]

By "gasket", are you referring to the thing that looks like an O-ring in SA0321 here VV?

View attachment 968889

Edit: From what DVP7070 says above ... I guess so

In the absence of special instructions about its orientation in my pdf file, I'd say the "bevel" may be just "impressed on the ring" by pressure after installation... But you never know.. He may well be onto something there

another thought ....You're not jamming the spring/ball somehow?

The o-ring in my picture is brand new. No deformation due to age, installation, etc. if you look closely you'll see a rolled edge.

However, I think you may be on to something as well. VV make sure the spring and detent ball are solidly in place. I think when I assembled mine, it went together easier if the ball was in either the "free" or "locked" position. It shouldn't matter, but maybe something is interfering.

 

[Weber Sarge]

Yeah, something isn't right - that hub dial should go back together easier than that . I only brought up lapping the parts to eliminate any chance of a burr created from cleaning it - otherwise reassembly should be easy .
Sarge

 

[Vae Victus]

are you assembling with everything dry but that groove for the snap ring OR are you lubing everything up so grease is in every friction point?

Everything is lubed. All friction surfaces.

 

[Vae Victus]

Ball and spring - I'm fairly sure I'm doing it right. But is it possible that I'm jamming it into the upper groove? I've looked closely at this.

When I insert the ball, I start at the v notch, then rotate it slightly between free and locked to hold it. Then I try inserting the clip.


Here are pics of both oring/gaskets/seals: new one has a protruding lip, old one has a flat groove. NEITHER works.

First pic. New right, old left

Second pic. New in front

Third pic. Old in front

 

[Vae Victus]

Do you have the seal oriented correctly. If I recall, there's a bit of a bevel to it. Here's a pic of when I did mine



If you have it flipped, it won't seat fully.

I can't tell from your photo, but I can't get the seal to turn and stay in any other orientation. It IS different from the original seal.

 

[Vae Victus]

I think when I assembled mine, it went together easier if the ball was in either the "free" or "locked" position. It shouldn't matter, but maybe something is interfering.

Hmmm. Let me try this.

 

[Vae Victus]

Seating the clip with the ball in Free is not much different. I tried seating the other side with the old gasket. I was able to get the clip in about halfway, and was able to turn the control handle with use of the handles of the channel locks for leverage, but it was very difficult to turn. The clip was still not totally seated.

The attached photos show the situation. Zooming in on the first pic you can see the tips are seated.

The middle of the c clip is not, and won't seat.

 

[Bear]

VV,

Despite the terminology, the new seal is not an o-ring as we typically see: it has a definite profile and is not completely round and smooth. Interesting that the shop manual says nothing about orientation of the profiled o-ring.

I wonder if the o-rings now being sold are slightly dimensionally thicker than the originals, either overall or in the profile?

Since everything works fine without the seal in place, and those parts are all metal and not scored or snagged, then the so-called o-ring is where the problem lies.

There are a couple of Mud members who do a business of restoring old hubs, and hopefully will chime in here for the benefit of all.

Thank-you for photo-documenting this--your eventual success will help us all.

 

[Vae Victus]

Thanks Bear.

It is interesting that the old seals also do not fit, but they are very loose now so it's probably more a factor of the extra material hanging up when I'm trying to seat to handle into the housing.

The new seals or slightly thicker than the original seals, and they do have a different profile. The new seal seems to have a lip coming out at a 45° angle, and the old seals had a flat groove in them and were essentially square.

I do believe that if I could get the new seals to rotate slightly and retain that rotation when I put them in the groove of the control handle, it would change their profile to be more flat. But neither one of them wants to change its orientation, so I feel like this is the orientation they are supposed to have.

The seals came from Kurt at cruiser outfitters I think? I'll have to check that.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

My "O-ring" seals were definitely also profiled (not a traditional round O-ring). I ordered them from Mid Atlantic Toyota Parts, an online Toyota parts house, so I can confirm that they are stock Toyota O-rings. When I did a parts search, they appeared to be universal to all AISIN locking hubs (FJ40, FJ60, Mini Truck, Suzuki Samurai, etc.) I did not pay any attention to the orientation when I installed them, I just threw them on and buttoned the dial back up. Maybe I got lucky? I hesitate to think that's the case given that my truck stubbornly fights me every time I try to perform even the most basic maintenance, but maybe everyone gets one streak of luck...

I'm totally at a loss here. My original rings were stretched and dry rotted, but I reassembled the dials with them at one point to test fit things, and they still fit and worked. Final reassembly was done with the new rings, and everything still fit, and worked properly, lubed or dry. The C-clip was a little bit of a pain to get seated, but only so much as every other C-clip is a pain to get seated...I think I went through both dials, cleaned, lubed, new seals, and clips reinstalled, in a half hour...it shouldn't be this hard!

I can't imagine there is a similarly conflicting burr on both dials that would prevent proper seating - that would be far too coincidental. It seems that you are 100% certain that those are the same C-clips that were installed there previously (and I believe you are correct). Looking at mine, it's the only C-clip with the cut-outs for the pliers to grab...This seems to point to the O-ring/gasket, but if this was the case, I would imagine they would still reassemble with the old gaskets.

The only thing I can think to try is clearancing the rubber seal with some sand paper to see if you can minimally reduce the outer diameter in order to make it fit...Of course, then you might not get a good seal, either...

I really don't know...I'm frustrated FOR you!

For what it's worth, here are some shots of mine, during disassembly - unfortunately it doesn't look like I have a shot of the O-ring seated, but in case it provides any insight:

And a link to my thread where I reassembled mine:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/th...in-refurbishing-a-1975-chevota.725833/page-18

I will try to remember to search my photo archive when I get home tonight to see if I have any additional hub shots that I didn't upload that might provide some more info...

 

[DanS HJ-45]

I've rebuilt quite a few of these.

To be clear:

• Without the seal you can reassemble the dial into the outer ring and it works fine?
• Does the spring and ball make any difference if it is not included? How clean is the hole for the spring? I clean these out with a coffee stirring straw to get them clean enough.
• Did you simply blast these? Glass bead, composite or sand?
• Can you place the dial into the outer ring "backwards" (with the inside of the dial pointing with the outside of the outer ring, and vice versa), and have it turn freely in the outer ring? There are two surfaces which often make them hard to turn, both are "vertical" (with the hub dial setting flat on a table)--placing them together "backwards" lets you check the clearance of the outermost (when correctly assembled) dial-to-outer ring fit.

The seal (O-Ring) will often make them "slow" to turn, but not make it impossible, or require the use of pliers. I often assemble the dial to the outer ring completely (including grease) and then turn the two a whole lot to lap the seal in and make it a little easier to turn when it's installed.


Dan

 

[DPV7070]

VV, since I'm laid up on bed rest I'm closely following this and hoping for the easy win.

You blasted the parts. I did too (well not the inside machined surfaces), so I don't think you made any metal grow, warp, etc. BUT, it looks like there's still a lot of grit / crap hanging around in there. I'd recommend getting some degreaser and an AP brush and go to town. Make absolutely sure the small hole for the spring and detent is

Are you giving the dial room to seat while supporting the outer assembly. Think about a "donut" cushion for people with back and butt problems. If your assembling on a flat surface you need to allow the dial to sit down in there. This is probably obvious to you but just throwing it out there.

 

[vtgbeemer]

DPV, been enjoying your OM617 swap and hope you have a speedy recovery. I am still trying to process what has changed in these hubs and the only outside influence involved in preventing reassembly with the old seals is the surface created by blasting. I don't feel that anything is warped or distorted but blasting aluminum, especially surfaces that were smooth has two side effects. It becomes rough as if thousands of ball peen hammers have dimpled it creating highs and lows, and a certain amount of near microscopic grit has become impregnated into the metal. Both result in a tighter friction fit. (still trying to get you to lap until your arms fall off) V V, I am sure you have a busy schedule but you are welcome to bring 'em up and us see what we can do.

 

[Weber Sarge]

Wish I were closer , love a challenge like this . I concur about blasting parts - it does raise the surface slightly and can leave particles buried into the aluminum . Lap it good n hard for a bit , see if it gets better .
Sarge

 

[Vae Victus]

Ok I'm taking all the advice here and applying it. I'll report back.

Agree on the blasting - it's created more friction. Good thing is that I blasted with the clip in, so it protected most of the inner surfaces.

But - I have cleaned with mineral spirits and scrubbed with soap and water to remove all grit. All that wasn't embedded in the AL that is.

 

[scrapdaddy]

Just a comment on bead blasting. Years ago I blasted a VW's engine halves with glass beads, looked beautiful, but when I had it all back together and ran it down the road, it locked up tight. The motor got hot and the pores in the metal expanded, releasing the glass beads. Ruined the whole thing. I learned a lesson.

Hope you figure it out, very frustrating.

 

[Vae Victus]

Prior to my last attempt, I used some 400 or 600 grit sandpaper and cleaned the flat surfaces that I could reach including the area where the c-clip rests on the control handle, and the mating surfaces of the handle and the cover housing.

Remember too that I did not blast all of these surfaces - the unit was still assembled (c-clip and seal installed) when I blasted it. Only about half of the area where the c clip rests got touched. You can see that area in the photo.

For blasting, I used an extremely fine mix of crushed glass and AL Oxide that had been used and recycled several times.

 

[Vae Victus]

Ok - here we go.

 

[Vae Victus]

Mmm. Still no go after lapping. Without the seal, works fine. With either old or new seal, can get the c-clip to seat.