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@onemanarmy *death wobble has entered the chat*
Oh, I don't know. Simpler, beefier, less moving parts, durability to name a few. Of course I own an '84 Hi-lux, a 2019 F-350, a 1993 80 series and owned a TJ for 15 years. No, they don't ride like as nice as my wife's 100 series, but after 500,000+ miles in the solid axle rigs above, I don't find the ride objectionable. I'd gladly take a solid axle GX or 100 series if available.
Don’t forget zero marketing.
I’ve driven my 200 from Boston to Badlands National Park, then to Yellowstone, south to Grand Teton, from there to Breckenridge, did some off-roading near Breckenridge, and finally back to Boston. All told, I did over 6,000 miles on that road trip. I find it tiring driving 4 days straight on the interstate, 10 hours each day, even in something as comfortable as a 200. There is no way in hell I would want to make that long a road trip in a solid front axle truck.
As for durability, I can say the number of times I’ve broken parts in the front suspension of a Toyota truck is exactly zero.
No, I have absolutely no desire to daily a solid front axle truck and have no understanding why anyone would want to when there are so many better vehicles.
I see a lot folks on the internet who claim to want “simpler” vehicles from the “good old days”. To quote my late father-in-law, what was so good about them? I learned to drive in a 1969 Ford Falcon with manual steering, unassisted 4-wheel drum brakes, bias ply tires, and an anemic straight six. While that car was reliable for its time, it pales in comparison to any modern car in terms of reliability, comfort, handling, braking, ride, acceleration, and fuel economy. I have absolutely zero nostalgia for old cars and trucks because, quite frankly, they sucked.
Solid front axle? No thank you.
Same boat here. My SFA experience is limited to diesel pickups but I have zero desire to daily or even own one. Lifted IFS is plenty capable for the wheeling I do, and I find Toyota IFS exceptionally easy to work on. 45 min wheel bearings and 60 minute CV boots.
We each have our opinions. Always liked how my FJ60 drove on the highway.
Based on your stated use case of daily driving to soccer practice, etc., and your 5 mile proximity to the Ineos dealer, buying an Ineos seems like a fun decision.
It could be an unreliable bucket of bolts, but if you have dealer support nearby and other vehicles to drive, go for it.
My personal take on the Grenadier, however, is that it’s a hard pass. It’s going to be a novelty item, not really good at anything, and not long for this world.
Disagree 100%.
The market for 80 Series Land Cruisers is still pretty hot, specifically because they have a solid front axle. People are daily driving those without any issues or concerns. My last truck was an F250 diesel, solid front axle, it drove great. My G63, solid front axle, drove great.
I will admit to not being a typical user. I wheel everything. Even the G Wagon was lifted with 35s. Wheeling to me is not driving dirt roads or washboard roads, it’s more technical stuff; Colorado mountain trails and Moab trails, etc.
IFS is better on washboard roads…stock for stock. But I would suggest that if I’m doing a long stretch of washboard roads in my jeep and I air it down to 10 psi, I will enjoy a far smoother ride than IFS rigs (which really can’t achieve the same level of sidewall as a 37” tire without significant modification.)
I’m on my 3rd JLUR and I love the way they drive. Smooth and comfortable.
Honestly, my IFS Toyotas have been way more of a pain in the butt to drive and live with after any changes from bone stock. And I’ve modified a Lot of them. IFS seems to be so sensitive to any wheel being slightly off balance. Every Toyota I’ve put larger tires on, ALWAYS has steering wheel shake, to some degree, at some speed.
My JLURs on the other hand: slap on 37s and go. Smooth on and off road. No wobble, no shake, even after any wild trail experience.
The “solid front axle is bad as a daily driver” argument has always seems like BS to me, and I’ve owned nearly 60 vehicles, most of them bought new.
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O.K. What we've learned in the past few posts is that those who drive a SFA are posing and I'm supposing that M1911, actually has very little experience driving a SFA vehicle. He's, heard the term death wobble, so that make someone an expert on SFA vehicles....Just busting your b*lls! For the record, I've never experience death wobble in any of my vehicles.
I've driven my hi-lux and TJ across the US multiple times. 9 duty stations between Colorado and the east coast have necessitated that along with driving my TJ from Virginia to Moab just to be part of EJS a few times for good measure. With family in Oregon, I've driven the Colorado to PNW leg more times that I wish to count. I've got half a million miles in SFA vehicles and we've put 280,000 miles on the wife's 100. For what I expect a vehicle to do and put it through, SFA is the only way to go and I have no complaints about how my current Superduty or 80 series drives on the highway. They are smooth and vibration free. The hi-lux is in storage, but I put nearly 200,000 miles on it before putting it in a conex box until I figure out what to put that engine into. I sold the TJ when the third kid came along. I'm also part of an off-road recovery group here in Colorado and we see far more broken IFS vehicles than SFA vehicles on a yearly basis. If you are driving graded back country roads, then IFS will likely work just fine. But I can count on one hand the number of IFS rigs our recovery club has out of 115 active members.
I've driven my hi-lux and TJ across the US multiple times. 9 duty stations between Colorado and the east coast have necessitated that along with driving my TJ from Virginia to Moab just to be part of EJS a few times for good measure. With family in Oregon, I've driven the Colorado to PNW leg more times that I wish to count. I've got half a million miles in SFA vehicles and we've put 280,000 miles on the wife's 100. For what I expect a vehicle to do and put it through, SFA is the only way to go and I have no complaints about how my current Superduty or 80 series drives on the highway. They are smooth and vibration free. The hi-lux is in storage, but I put nearly 200,000 miles on it before putting it in a conex box until I figure out what to put that engine into. I sold the TJ when the third kid came along. I'm also part of an off-road recovery group here in Colorado and we see far more broken IFS vehicles than SFA vehicles on a yearly basis. If you are driving graded back country roads, then IFS will likely work just fine. But I can count on one hand the number of IFS rigs our recovery club has out of 115 active members.
I would always prefer SFA in a Land Cruiser, and would have with the 250/300. The switch to IFS with the 100 series is to this day still a damn shame. Interstate driving is not why I own Land Cruisers. I have another car for that. SFA is among a considerable list of design choices that Ineos, in my opinion, got right.
For me it's not the smoothness in a straight line, it's the handling on twisty paved backroads and higher-speed gravel/washboards/etc. I have to drive lots of those to get to a place to wheel. I've found driving SFA rigs on those roads unenjoyable. A SFA rig would be worse- behaved than a IFS rig for 99.5% of the miles I put on my all-purpose tow/family hauling/bike hauling/overlanding/wheeling rig.
Last year our recovery group members put a collective 180,000 miles on their rigs responding to recoveries that commercial tow companies refused to service. We had a recovery the other night involving an modified FJ Cruiser, a basically stock Tacoma and a stock F-150. The Toyota's got stuck going up a snow covered trail they should never have been on and the F-150 was a Sheriff's Deputy truck trying to rescue the occupants of the Toyota's. Our recovery group consisted of a Power Wagon on 37's, a JK on 35's, an XJ on 35's and my 80 series on 35's. We recovered two Search and Rescue vehicles (they were activated due to the number of people isolated and because a Sheriff's vehicle was involved) before we even got to the trailhead. Because snow was falling and conditions were deteriorating fast, just getting to the vehicles required chaining up. At the site, snow was 1.5-2.0 feet deep and still falling. All of the recovered vehicles were pointed the wrong direction an we were unable to get around them. As such, we had to turn them around where they sat. Due them also being IFS, we could only chain up the rear axle of the recovered vehicles as there was no clearance on the front end for chains. It was a long night, but everyone got off the mountain safe and sound. I've considered making my wife's 100 series our next off-road/recovery rig, but it would need to become a SFA rig first.
FWIW, I've had a bunch of both. Still have an fj40 - but it's not really comparable.
Went back to back f250 stock to tundra stock. From the driver's seat they are pretty darn similar in feel, handling, etc. F250 probably better slightly - tracked better with less driver input and less steering feedback. Mostly a result of engineering choices I think. Both were markedly better than my modestly lifted 4runner and the 4runner was significantly better than a stock Wrangler. None were really close at all to most ifs cuvs and cars.
I think a solid axle can drive really well on and off road if the design is right and geometry are well done. I think Toyota has done a poor job in one area of engineering the IFS on most of its past models. Toyota engineers way too little caster. They finally moved up the bassmaster to around 5° on the new GAF. I think that's part of why some of the solid axle models drive as well as Toyota's IFS.
The other issue is that lifted IFS is really hard to make ride well due to the geometry problem. The steeper the control arm angle - the more of every impact is directly transferred to the chassis regardless of what suspension it has. Lifting a solid axle can still retain full transfer of forces through the suspension.
Depending on terrain, ifs can be better or worse off-road. Go fast? Ifs. Extreme clearance? Ifs/irs is hard to beat. Slow speed, weight distribution, solid axle.
My ifs/irs UTV couldn't be more different than my fj40. For 99% of trails I'll take the UTV. I'm pretty convinced that if I ever do a clean sheet build on my 40 again it'll get long travel ifs/irs. I'll also shoot for getting the weight under 3k lbs. But it'll never be a great highway cruiser. Just a lot more comfortable on the 8/10th type stuff.
Went back to back f250 stock to tundra stock. From the driver's seat they are pretty darn similar in feel, handling, etc. F250 probably better slightly - tracked better with less driver input and less steering feedback. Mostly a result of engineering choices I think. Both were markedly better than my modestly lifted 4runner and the 4runner was significantly better than a stock Wrangler. None were really close at all to most ifs cuvs and cars.
I think a solid axle can drive really well on and off road if the design is right and geometry are well done. I think Toyota has done a poor job in one area of engineering the IFS on most of its past models. Toyota engineers way too little caster. They finally moved up the bassmaster to around 5° on the new GAF. I think that's part of why some of the solid axle models drive as well as Toyota's IFS.
The other issue is that lifted IFS is really hard to make ride well due to the geometry problem. The steeper the control arm angle - the more of every impact is directly transferred to the chassis regardless of what suspension it has. Lifting a solid axle can still retain full transfer of forces through the suspension.
Depending on terrain, ifs can be better or worse off-road. Go fast? Ifs. Extreme clearance? Ifs/irs is hard to beat. Slow speed, weight distribution, solid axle.
My ifs/irs UTV couldn't be more different than my fj40. For 99% of trails I'll take the UTV. I'm pretty convinced that if I ever do a clean sheet build on my 40 again it'll get long travel ifs/irs. I'll also shoot for getting the weight under 3k lbs. But it'll never be a great highway cruiser. Just a lot more comfortable on the 8/10th type stuff.
Ineos would've had to cheap out on nearly everything to hit that price point.
No Recaro seats.
No Brembo brakes.
No Eibach springs.
No Bilstein shocks.
No bespoke Tremec gear drive transfer case (chain drives are cheaper).
No 1 ton sized steering components.
No rust-proof aluminum hood and all 6 doors.
No kingpin front knuckles (ball joints are cheaper).
No roof you can walk on (no rack needed).
No 7700lb towing capacity.
No etc, etc...
Three or four years ago they might have been able to hit that number but not at today's raw material and manufacturing prices.
That's all I drive. SO much easier to diagnose issues and do repairs. Cheaper too. They handle just fine on the highway. Ask any full-sized HD pickup driver. I have several solid axle vehicles with a combined highway mileage of almost 400K miles between them and I've never had any issue of any kind. I intend to keep them another 20 years. Show me a tin-can SUV that can do that. I need 4WD for snow and dirt roads in winter. I'm not going to Moab in my 3/4 ton diesel.
Unless Toyota brings the 70 series to the US - which is never happening - you're stuck with renovating a 25+ year old vehicle and almost 45 yr with an actual 60. It will cost you as much as a Grenadier even if you do a lot of the work yourself (what's your time worth?). You'll mostly be painting/powdercoating over old, tired metal like your frame and axle housings and you still won't have a warranty when your done.
Ineos has done a pretty good job of giving you what you're asking for. Not perfect. But damn close. I think their vehicle is probably better built than a 60. It weighs more than 1500lbs more than a 60 and it's half aluminum. Airbags, antilock brakes, and greek columns for the A,B,C,D pillars. They tried to keep 16" wheels but they wanted bigger brakes so they chose to go 17s. At least they're not twenties.
No, they didn't put in a manual which is also a negative in my book. It is just more efficient to use a modern computer controlled auto that always has the engine running in it's most environmentally-friendly rpm range. Other markets are getting a manual and a non-hybrid engine in the new 250 but not us so that sort of tells the tale. I'd also rather have manual windows but I was told that manual window regulators are heavy compared to a small electric motor and a wire. The Ineos already weighs in at 5800 lbs! The new 250 better be built like a tank.
not to get too far into the weeds......but there is SO MUCH room between Recaro/bilstein/brembo/eibach parts and other off the shelf parts.
as an example....ford/chevy/dodge rotors and calipers that are off the shelf and can be had for less, and perform great for millions of trucks
coil springs at the spring-rate you want, can be had cheap taken from any other SUV that uses coil springs
shocks that are on the any new SUVs are fine these days....no need for a name brand
they have to setup different P/Ns and maybe suppliers to paint the frame red?! That doens't help ever escalating costs
just curious how many other things they spent time and money on to design and engineer and made their own when they could have used parts bin parts (grab handles, mirrors, switches, handles, levers, stalks, shocks,....hundreds of things) that wouldn't hurt dependability, reliability, or ruggedness....and help calm fears about parts and service after warranty is over
need a new brake caliper in 10 years? Go get one from a F150 or something
Toyota builds a LC70 for less than that.
I'm not sure a boutique small volume coach builder could do it at that price. But it's definitely very doable for a efficient manufacturer. I'm not sure there's many buyers though. Those buyers grab a LC70 globally or a domestic HD truck in the USA. You can buy a new RAM Powerwagon for $60k right now. Ineos would have tough time competing in that market.
Fort9378
SILVER Star
Semantics, but a Power Wagon starts at $72k now. It's just the price to play these days.
You can buy them all day long at $60k. Maybe ineos can be negotiated down too. Not sure. Just looking at real world prices, you can also get a base model diesel RAM or Ford hd solid axle 4x4 crew cab for about $55k and add lockers to get pretty similar capabilities for about $60k. For $70k it would be easy to setup a new base f250 or Powerwagon with lockers, snorkel, winch, 37s, ready to go explore.
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