Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
Did you ever solve this issue. I have the same problemDrained the gear oil and no metal particles. The search for the answer continues
intermittent transfer case grind in fj-62 (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter pequiod
- Start date
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Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
Problem solved!!!! Happy cruiser owner now
rrv333
SILVER Star
Please share the cure
Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
Yes sir, I will in the next couple of days. Short story was obtaining the correct front pinion angle. I will do a write up here in the next couple of days with pictures, angle and length measurements (before and after), etc. as it may become useful to have these on record for other 60 owners.
Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
There are several threads here on Mud about this problem but none explain how it was fixed.
Here is the description of what I did to get rid of that front driveline grinding noise upon coast and deceleration. All of the stuff described will change upon your specific set up so let’s describe mine as to the mods that affect my problem described earlier in this thread. 1984 FJ60, 4 inch OME heavy spring/lift, spring under axle. 4Plus Products front shackle reversal. 4Plus Products U Bolt flip kits all around. Rebuilt Double Cardan front Driveshaft from Tom Woods with 2 inch exposed slip joint when vehicle level at rest. DC shafts were stock in 84. New H55 installed by Valley Hybrids. 35X12.5X17 BFG MUD AT’s. I am certainly no mechanic, just barely hanging in the shade tree category and, like many forum members here, learning as I go. Special thanks go to Georg Esterer of Valley Hybrids in Stockton, CA (orangefj45) and Dave Gore of 4Plus Products in Miami, AZ (lcwizard). And of course the rest of the Mud family.
The solution was quite simple really. Install 4 degree caster shims between spring and spring perch, fat to rear to roll that front pinion angle up. Of course that decreased Caster then as well and could affect steering and introduce new issues. However steering seems to have no noticeable changes. Dave informed me the stock front pinion angle for an 1984 should be around 84 degrees. Mine was 88.4. It should be noted that to put an H55 in an 84 model will require the front driveshaft to be lengthened and the rear shortened, which they were. This will change driveline angles slightly. He also explained on axle rotation under load and braking. There can be quite a bit of this, much more than I thought was possible. One thrill seeking afternoon with my buddy Dan driving then standing on the brakes, while I hung out the door upside down viewing the axles, showed me how much was actually possible. Next time, however, I think I will use a Go-Pro Camera!
Here is what Dave said about the axle wrap: “The front pinion rises under braking, the rear drops during braking. In 4 wheel drive the front drops and the rear rises under power. I think you'll be fine with the right shim. 2.5 may work but I doubt more than 4 will be necessary.”
Georg recommended 4 degree: “As for the angles, I think a 4 degree shim would work best. That will still give you mild positive caster and the front drive shaft angles will match up closer. I'll get a set in the mail to you tomorrow.”
Of course I had sent all my angle measurements to both these experts. And it was recommended to me by Georg to get a good digital level/angle finder, not the analog spring loaded types. Once I got them, the reason for getting them was obvious as they were so accurate. But a vehicle at rest is vastly different than one in operation….and somebody with the exact same set up as me but with a medium spring will have different axle rotations. On these spring shims, the best results will be somewhere in the middle of the up and down pinion movement, at least that is the conclusion I have drawn.
A basic understanding of driveshaft geometry helped me figure this out in my head. There is a ton to it but there are a couple of basic facts. On a driveshaft that has a single U Joint at each end the pinion flange angle should be equal to the output flange of the transfer. As you can see from my examples, I have a 4.7 degree difference on my rear driveshaft. I do feel some mild harmonic vibrations that could be due to this but with these aggressive tires making so much vibration it is hard to say. But that is a minor problem for another day. On a Double Cardan shaft most of the angle is made up in the DC and the standard U Joint flange at the Diff end that hooks to the pinion flange should have the same angle. In other words, the rotational axis of the main shaft should be in line as best as possible with the rotational axis of the pinion. But that’s in a perfect world, there is other geometry going on within the double cardan that I don’t understand exactly. My rotational axis are not in alignment now and the front end is smooth as a baby’s butt. However, they are much more closely in alignment then they were before the shim wedges. Also, it should be noted, that under braking that pinion will rise making the rotational axis of the shaft and the pinion much more in the same line. And under deceleration is where we had the problem.
Necessary tools
Caster Angle
Pinion flange angle
Drive shaft angle
Anyway, the 4 degree wedges got me back in business. With a couple of floor jacks, some tall sturdy jack stands, and a mechanic great friend who works for his pay in 12 packs of Busch Light, it only takes an hour or two to swap these shims in. And shims are relatively cheap so you can try different combos to suit your rigs set up and your driving style. And don’t forget to torque those U bolts and check them regularly. I found they could take a few more turns to get to 110 ft. lbs. after only about a 20 mile test drive. I also took the opportunity to change the front brake lines to stainless steel that I had laying around for a while. And rotated the 4 tires.
Sorry so wordy but if this helps anybody at all out there it was worth the time.
Here is the description of what I did to get rid of that front driveline grinding noise upon coast and deceleration. All of the stuff described will change upon your specific set up so let’s describe mine as to the mods that affect my problem described earlier in this thread. 1984 FJ60, 4 inch OME heavy spring/lift, spring under axle. 4Plus Products front shackle reversal. 4Plus Products U Bolt flip kits all around. Rebuilt Double Cardan front Driveshaft from Tom Woods with 2 inch exposed slip joint when vehicle level at rest. DC shafts were stock in 84. New H55 installed by Valley Hybrids. 35X12.5X17 BFG MUD AT’s. I am certainly no mechanic, just barely hanging in the shade tree category and, like many forum members here, learning as I go. Special thanks go to Georg Esterer of Valley Hybrids in Stockton, CA (orangefj45) and Dave Gore of 4Plus Products in Miami, AZ (lcwizard). And of course the rest of the Mud family.
The solution was quite simple really. Install 4 degree caster shims between spring and spring perch, fat to rear to roll that front pinion angle up. Of course that decreased Caster then as well and could affect steering and introduce new issues. However steering seems to have no noticeable changes. Dave informed me the stock front pinion angle for an 1984 should be around 84 degrees. Mine was 88.4. It should be noted that to put an H55 in an 84 model will require the front driveshaft to be lengthened and the rear shortened, which they were. This will change driveline angles slightly. He also explained on axle rotation under load and braking. There can be quite a bit of this, much more than I thought was possible. One thrill seeking afternoon with my buddy Dan driving then standing on the brakes, while I hung out the door upside down viewing the axles, showed me how much was actually possible. Next time, however, I think I will use a Go-Pro Camera!
Here is what Dave said about the axle wrap: “The front pinion rises under braking, the rear drops during braking. In 4 wheel drive the front drops and the rear rises under power. I think you'll be fine with the right shim. 2.5 may work but I doubt more than 4 will be necessary.”
Georg recommended 4 degree: “As for the angles, I think a 4 degree shim would work best. That will still give you mild positive caster and the front drive shaft angles will match up closer. I'll get a set in the mail to you tomorrow.”
Of course I had sent all my angle measurements to both these experts. And it was recommended to me by Georg to get a good digital level/angle finder, not the analog spring loaded types. Once I got them, the reason for getting them was obvious as they were so accurate. But a vehicle at rest is vastly different than one in operation….and somebody with the exact same set up as me but with a medium spring will have different axle rotations. On these spring shims, the best results will be somewhere in the middle of the up and down pinion movement, at least that is the conclusion I have drawn.
A basic understanding of driveshaft geometry helped me figure this out in my head. There is a ton to it but there are a couple of basic facts. On a driveshaft that has a single U Joint at each end the pinion flange angle should be equal to the output flange of the transfer. As you can see from my examples, I have a 4.7 degree difference on my rear driveshaft. I do feel some mild harmonic vibrations that could be due to this but with these aggressive tires making so much vibration it is hard to say. But that is a minor problem for another day. On a Double Cardan shaft most of the angle is made up in the DC and the standard U Joint flange at the Diff end that hooks to the pinion flange should have the same angle. In other words, the rotational axis of the main shaft should be in line as best as possible with the rotational axis of the pinion. But that’s in a perfect world, there is other geometry going on within the double cardan that I don’t understand exactly. My rotational axis are not in alignment now and the front end is smooth as a baby’s butt. However, they are much more closely in alignment then they were before the shim wedges. Also, it should be noted, that under braking that pinion will rise making the rotational axis of the shaft and the pinion much more in the same line. And under deceleration is where we had the problem.
Necessary tools
Caster Angle
Pinion flange angle
Drive shaft angle
Anyway, the 4 degree wedges got me back in business. With a couple of floor jacks, some tall sturdy jack stands, and a mechanic great friend who works for his pay in 12 packs of Busch Light, it only takes an hour or two to swap these shims in. And shims are relatively cheap so you can try different combos to suit your rigs set up and your driving style. And don’t forget to torque those U bolts and check them regularly. I found they could take a few more turns to get to 110 ft. lbs. after only about a 20 mile test drive. I also took the opportunity to change the front brake lines to stainless steel that I had laying around for a while. And rotated the 4 tires.
Sorry so wordy but if this helps anybody at all out there it was worth the time.
Last edited:
Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
Last edited:
Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
Drive shaft styles and other pics
Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
I also heard that the front pinion angle changed depending on the year but I do not know the stock pinion angles from the factory other than on my 1984 edition.
rrv333
SILVER Star
Thank you for your time in documenting the cure. Shims it is, then.
Captain Sanuk
WAMPA
This helps a ton. Thanks
Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
I think on an 89 you may not have a DC front shaft, probably a standard.
I'm not sure but I think Dave (lcwizard) told me the axle wrap may be opposite for a SOA build but I may be wrong
He has commented on this in other threads. Send him a PM with questions, tell him Tom sent you his way. Don't forget to check out his biz http://www.4plusproducts.com/fj60classicrearbumper.html
He makes good stuff, that's my blue 60 he used for pictures on his website
Last edited:
Captain Sanuk
WAMPA
Ok thank you for your help
So... I know this is old but this is the most similar thing I can find on here as to what my truck is doing.
A little background 4in lift, 35's, ARB F+R air lockers, H55F... not sure of transfer case or other things.
I recently changed all fluids and did not find anything but a small amount of metal powder on the plugs of the transfer and tranny.
When 60 is in 4H and hubs are locked I get a weird rumbling sound around 45, it comes and goes It sounds similar to running over a rumble strip on the high way. It will come and go, NOT all the time.
I decided (with some advice from a friend) to try this with the hubs unlocked and the t case in 4H..... Still same noise under same conditions. So I also did the reverse, hubs locked t case in 2H... no noise.
Today I unlocked the hubs and put t case in 4H.... no noise.
Its confusing me and would like to diagnose since I need 4H to and from home.
I've read to put on jack stands and put in 4H, have a buddy give it gas and listen for the noise?
Also, could this be (as I've read) Ujoints, bad drive shaft, or loose ring and pinion gears?
Please help!
A little background 4in lift, 35's, ARB F+R air lockers, H55F... not sure of transfer case or other things.
I recently changed all fluids and did not find anything but a small amount of metal powder on the plugs of the transfer and tranny.
When 60 is in 4H and hubs are locked I get a weird rumbling sound around 45, it comes and goes It sounds similar to running over a rumble strip on the high way. It will come and go, NOT all the time.
I decided (with some advice from a friend) to try this with the hubs unlocked and the t case in 4H..... Still same noise under same conditions. So I also did the reverse, hubs locked t case in 2H... no noise.
Today I unlocked the hubs and put t case in 4H.... no noise.
Its confusing me and would like to diagnose since I need 4H to and from home.
I've read to put on jack stands and put in 4H, have a buddy give it gas and listen for the noise?
Also, could this be (as I've read) Ujoints, bad drive shaft, or loose ring and pinion gears?
Please help!
Bear Lake Cruiser
SILVER Star
Put the jack stands on the axles so the driveshaft angles remain as if all 4 meats were on the ground. Mine did not make the noise while on jackstands though.
