Engine bay body rips (3 Viewers)

[valkyrie610]

What a load of hooey!

Not necessarily... to this point there haven't been a statistically significant amount of claims, therefore it hasn't been widely discussed internally.

Because of that, it is indeed quite possible, and in fact quite likely, that many dealerships are still uninformed of this.

 

[FJCRUZR]

Not necessarily... to this point there haven't been a statistically significant amount of claims, therefore it hasn't been widely discussed internally.

Because of that, it is indeed quite possible, and in fact quite likely, that many dealerships are still uninformed of this.

I highly value and respect your opinion, but is ignorance on the dealers part because of Toyota not informing them a good excuse?
Why is one person getting their truck fix under warranty for a known issues and the other not for the same issues because that one dealer is not aware of the problems...

The bulges on my truck happened before the lift and ARB/winch bumper, since I put them on the bulges didn't get much worst(in two years of driving and wheeling) but yet the dealer says the bumper is the problem!

Forgive me for my frustration, I just never imagine having those kind of issues with Toyota.

 

[valkyrie610]

No, I completely understand your frustration... in fact I share it.

I didn't intend to offer it as an excuse (good or otherwise), I just was trying to explain why some dealerships don't know. It isn't right, I agree, but it is the truth.

I was hoping that perhaps my explanation just might give the next guy pause to reflect before they start assuming that the dealer is lying about their ignorance. It is my opinion that their ignorance is excusable due to the lack of communication from corporate about it.

I guess in my heart, I am trying to save some poor fellow Toyota Collision Center manager out in BFE who, through no fault of his own, might get yelled at about something he knows nothing of.

Sometimes, when people are emotionally charged and predisposed to expecting a bad experience, they become very irrational and rude... just sometimes.

 

[valkyrie610]

Why is one person getting their truck fix under warranty for a known issues and the other not for the same issues because that one dealer is not aware of the problems...

I think by now, with the level of discussion this has had here and in the Blue Room that this has already been answered.

It helps to understand how Toyota's regional systems have evolved, and how decision making varies from region to reason. It also helps to understand Toyotas (TMS's) thought process. They don't deny there were issues, they are just unsure of the cause- the relative inconsistency of occurrence and statistically insignificant number of claims is puzzling. I believe (having been one of the first in the country to perform a factory authorized apron swap) that it was a frame flex issue- but then again I'm not an engineer. The third design of aprons was not, to my knowledge at least, to correct a "flaw" in the second design, but more to improve upon it.

The bulges on my truck happened before the lift and ARB/winch bumper, since I put them on the bulges didn't get much worst(in two years of driving and wheeling) but yet the dealer says the bumper is the problem!

Well, without evidence of the bulges documented prior to the bumper installation, it is quite understandable why they would make that assumption- and let me tell you why: the Body Shop Manager (or Service Manager) doesn't really care WHO pays for work, he cares that someone pays. Toyota pays the dealership a fair profit for warranty repairs, so it's not like they is declining coverage because he has to do warranty work for "free".

Declining warranty coverage usually happens if something is 'likely to be' (in his mind) or already 'has been' (in his experience) kicked back on a warranty audit, and therefore it is logical that he will decline coverage. Often times this can be talked through to a good compromise, especially if his reasoning is based on a 'likely to be' scenario in his mind. Remember, the more calmly & logically you can outline your story, the easier it will be for him to sell the same story to Toyota should he be questioned on an audit... you are in essence "loading his lips".

Interestingly, I know other Toyota Collision Center managers right around me that have absolutely no idea about this issue, and would probably balk if it was presented to them. Along with that, many old-school managers still have the mindset that if there are any modifications they are uneducated about, their knee-jerk reaction is to say no. Aftermarket is a bad word to them, they were trained that way, and frankly many of those old-school guys have risen to positions where they are making important decisions based on antiquated ideas from closed minds.

Suspensions are a real typical issue- lifted truck with larger tires has a transmission problem- what is this guy gonna say? It's not entirely his fault, that's probably exactly how he was trained and that is still the prevailing culture where he is and among those he interacts with.

There is a procedure for customer grievances to be worked out, and actually in my experience it usually works out for the customer even if it is in doubt... sludge motors are an excellent example of Toyota spending big bucks on engine replacements when most of the time it was the customer's fault for failing to change their oil at recommended intervals. In fact, that experience set the stage for Toyota's tougher warranty scrutiny over the past 4-5 years- they really got taken by a lot of people, and are sensitive to the potential of warranty abuse.

Just throwing this out because I know a lot of people think the guy is intentionally putting the screws to people, when in fact it is often a more complicated issue and involves more people up the chain.

I can just tell you from my experiences in the Toyota world that sensibility, attitude & relationships are very important factors. Usually the guy who stomps in ranting & raving & looking for a bad experience gets exactly what he expects. Also remember that it helps if you are a regular customer

I encourage everyone who hasn't done so already to get familiar with this: Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act

Basically, the burden of proof is on the dealer to prove that the modifications/parts installed are directly responsible for the failure.

I.E. A suspension system cannot be blamed for the air conditioning, but a case might be made that oversize tires contributed to a transmission failure.

Each dealership's Service/Body Shop/Fixed Operations Manager can interpret the data as they wish, which is why Toyota provides a system for arbitrating complaints.

Forgive me for my frustration, I just never imagine having those kind of issues with Toyota.

I know. Believe me, my posts are not meant to be construed as defensive of Toyota, although I am sure someone will want to spin it that way. I really just want everyone to have an understanding of both sides. It is my hope that taking the emotion out of it and getting people to act calmly and rationally will help things get resolved quickly and pleasantly.

Resign yourselves to the fact that it really is not a wide-spread problem statistically speaking, therefore it is not a widely-known problem,

There are channels, but finding them and successfully negotiating them can be challenging.

I am not saying any of this is "right", or diminishing the importance of the issues that have occurred, or negating the value of the customer experience... its just how it is, and I hope this knowledge helps someone get a satisfactory resolution.

 

[FJCRUZR]

All that being said, my problem is with Toyota not the dealers.
But it's no different than any other business, just sad...

As always your opinion/input is always valued and helpful.

Thank you valkyrie610!

 

[knoll0351]

I notice that his rig is sporting the All Pro bumper that I have on mine. My dealer is also trying to throw blame at the bumper which is obviously more sturdy than the factory original...

 

[Niner]

How can a body panel be blamed on a frame mounted bumper.

 

[NYCTRD]

Valk-
Have you only had your fender aprons repaired ONCE?
Any signs of more rips?

 

[valkyrie610]

Valk-
Have you only had your fender aprons repaired ONCE?
Any signs of more rips?

I do not own an FJ Cruiser. I am the Director of a Toyota Certified Collision Center, and performed the first apron replacement in GST on Graham's (GSGMac's) FJ Cruiser (same one we did the Dune Beige color change).

No further issues, and we used the first gen. replacement aprons.

 

[valkyrie610]

How can a body panel be blamed on a frame mounted bumper.

The consensus is that undo frame flexing is a contribuitng factor- Prado's had isolated incidents of the same issue in roughly the same area.

The theory is that adding extra weight to the frame, farther forward, may contribute.

 

[valkyrie610]

I have had a couple of PM's about this, so I figured I'd publish my replies here.

PLEASE: I do not want to argue with anyone, so keep your "Well, Toyota just sucks" comments to yourself (or at least just don't reference them to what I write ). I don't make policy for Toyota, I am just relaying my experiences in the hopes of helping someone find a resolution to their problem. Maybe you won't, and for that I'm sorry.

When we replaced Graham's aprons, we sent the old ones to our distributor, Gulf States Toyota (GST), who forwarded them to Toyota Motor Sales (TMS) in California along with a "Condition, Cause, Remedy" (CCR) report by our District Service & Parts Manager (DSPM). I was not privvy to his report, but I suspect the "cause" part was left blank becasue we were sending the panels up the chain.

Our DSPM was the one who authorized the repair as a warranty issue, and did it for two reasons:

1. He wanted to write a report on the condition, which at the time was just surfacing.
2. He wanted to provide "Good Will" to the customer- he was a very good customer, having bought several cars and bringing his car in for service regularly, so we all went to bat for him.

A note about "good will": Your dealership Service Manager usually has the ability to authorize "good will" repairs under certain circumstances and up to certain dollar amounts. The conditions are generally subjective (i.e. they tend to spend their good will budget on "good customers") and the budget is typically set by the owner of the dealership. This is why customers may have different experiences when they try to get answers from different dealers on issues that have gray areas, like this.

The DSPM has his own authority to authorize goodwill repairs also, and his generally entail a more formalized process, often resulting in him writing more detailed reports and suggesting technical examination of the questionable parts. These are the repairs that most often result in a formal bulletin being released.

Toyota believed at the time that it was due to shock load- specifically bottoming the suspension with the extra weight of an aftermarket bumper and winch up front.

Typically, such a finding would negate further action on behalf of Toyota, but Toyota has neither confirmed nor denied the existence of a "problem"... it seen more as a "condition" that is rare and subject to many variables. It is my opinion (and mine only) that Toyota is leaving the discretion down at a local level because there is a belief that vehicles with this condition are usually either being abused, modified beyond their engineered limits, or both. That puts the discretion at a local level- either solely on either the dealers judgment or the DSPM's judgment.

This will probably strike some people wrong, but it's the truth: your attitude and how good a customer you are to your dealership (what kind of relationship you have) goes a long way to how far someone will be willing to stick their neck out for you.

How your vehicle is modified may have a bearing, as well as if it appears to have abnormal/aggressive wear & tear or anything that could be construed by a layman as abuse. Also, whether your vehicle is in warranty or out of warranty (and how far out) all will have a bearing.

If your dealership, unlike mine, is directly underneath the umbrella of TMS, here's my advice: have the dealership call the TMS Techline and get them to open up an inquiry. Have them involve their TMS counterpart (probably a TMS DPSM). Also call the help line at 800-331-4331 & open up a case. Clearly mark and photograph your issues for your own records, and write down everything with dates & times & names. Calling and saying "I talked to this guy" will send you into bureaucratic hell.

Polite persistence will be your ally, because this is still a statistical anomaly, the causes of which are not well understood and therefore not widely known about.

I hope this helps everyone, and Good Luck!

 

[sdtash]

Yes I had a 120 Prado and cracks appeared. Had Toyota alloy bar and standard suspension. All the best in the future.

 

[Scooterpilot]

valkyrie610,


Thanks for your comments.


Regards

 

[Toledo FJ]

if they think it has to do with bumpers, lifts, and winches; How do they explain the fact that this has been documented on bone stock FJs that have never left pavement.

 

[valkyrie610]

Read closer, the answer is there.

 

[FJCRUZR]

Happy new year Valkyrie and everyone else!...

May this year bring more answers and result and let's wheel~~

 

[Blues Dawg]

Well stated. Mine were replaced by my dealer, the first they did, and they are very helpful.

 

[NYCTRD]

Valk
Going ahead with my repair. Do you feel removing the dash is a must for this job?

 

[valkyrie610]

Yes. Lots of welding going to be happening behind there.

 

[NYCTRD]

Thanx for contributing so much.

As this is my first Toyota (and one I intended on keeping for many years), I've been following this issue closely and been on the fence about even getting the reapir done in my window of opportunity.

The 2 "Toyota" body shops in my area both said that dash removal is unesessary, so I got the regional rep to approve a Jag dealer (with a body shop I know well) to do the repair.