You guys are not going to believe this. Blew another head gasket today!
- Thread starter IdahoDoug
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Here are the numbers on the vortec line
4.3 liter 200 HP @ 4600 - 260 tq @ 2800 Iron block/Iron Head
5.3 Liter 285 HP @ 5200 - 325 tq @ 4000 Iron Block/Alum Head
5.7 Liter 255 HP @ 4600 - 330 tq @ 2800 Iron Block/Iron Head
6.0 Liter 325 Hp @ 5000 - 370 tq @ 4000 Iron Block/Iron Head
Add a blower to the 5.7 and get 450 HP and 500 tq. These are the truck engines not the LT 1 series. The torque on the 5.7 is greater at a lower RPM and the HP is greater at the same RPM. Plus it is cast iron heads on everthing but the 5.3. The 4.3 is more comparable to the 1FZ. Like I said don't compare the trucks surrounding the engines just the engines. As far as aftermarket power bolt ons the market is huge.
This is my source for these numbers and they also have graphs for each engine.
http://www.jcscoops.com/performance/vortec_engine_specs.php
4.3 liter 200 HP @ 4600 - 260 tq @ 2800 Iron block/Iron Head
5.3 Liter 285 HP @ 5200 - 325 tq @ 4000 Iron Block/Alum Head
5.7 Liter 255 HP @ 4600 - 330 tq @ 2800 Iron Block/Iron Head
6.0 Liter 325 Hp @ 5000 - 370 tq @ 4000 Iron Block/Iron Head
Add a blower to the 5.7 and get 450 HP and 500 tq. These are the truck engines not the LT 1 series. The torque on the 5.7 is greater at a lower RPM and the HP is greater at the same RPM. Plus it is cast iron heads on everthing but the 5.3. The 4.3 is more comparable to the 1FZ. Like I said don't compare the trucks surrounding the engines just the engines. As far as aftermarket power bolt ons the market is huge.
This is my source for these numbers and they also have graphs for each engine.
http://www.jcscoops.com/performance/vortec_engine_specs.php
Sounds to me like you've found yourself a decent replacement for your 3FE. Go for it. 
-B-
-B-
vortec?
as a bonus you will get to listen to your pistons carve your cylinders into ovals every morning, trust me not a pretty sound on you brand new less than a week old 2001 silverado. Chevy refused to do anything about it "thats noraml"
. 63K later is was buning (not leaking) a sumps worth (8 quarts) every 5K
if you are going to do a SBC swap get a 350, much better engine, chevy used to know how to put skirts on an piston.
as a bonus you will get to listen to your pistons carve your cylinders into ovals every morning, trust me not a pretty sound on you brand new less than a week old 2001 silverado. Chevy refused to do anything about it "thats noraml"
. 63K later is was buning (not leaking) a sumps worth (8 quarts) every 5K if you are going to do a SBC swap get a 350, much better engine, chevy used to know how to put skirts on an piston.
Plenty of Vortec powered trucks running around here with 150k not burning oil like that. I think you have the exception not the rule. Anyway I've more than said my piece and why if i was in Doug's prediciment I would swap but thats just me. Doug has the tools and know how to do this job himself so it is much more cost effective for him and I understand that. Yes when my 3fe dies it will be swapped to something but with only 157k that could be quite some time. Runs smooth and quite its just a gutless pig. Probably wouldn't be too bad with a 5 speed or something. Good luck Doug. I'll be heading up that way this summer for a Scout run maybye I can check out your rigs.
I still don't understand the "cost effectiveness" thing. It will be more cost effective to r&r the HG vs SBC swap, no matter who you are or your talents.DJForrestA said:
If you know how to swing a wrench the HG will set you back several hundred $$, or if you are very talaented with a wrench, a SBC swap will run a minimum of several grand, a huge $$$ difference. If you don't swing a wrench at all a HG will put you out ~$1500, and a SBC swap by a pro will be $5k minimum, (I would expect it would be much more, unless you have connections/mechanic friend etc.) that is a monstrous $$$ difference.
If you want a swap, go for it, but unless you are quite a talented wrench with serious connections (ie. free engine, adapters, etc.), it will never be an economical decision when it comes to HG R&R vs SBC swap.
I was curious, how come there doesn't seem to be anyone using ARP head studs in these motors? It would seem to me to be a great way to get some extra clamp load to promote better HG sealing. I have used them for years in several forced induction applications with great success over stock head bolts. Even done swaps one bolt/stud at a time on motors with leaking HG's to stop the leak. I do not see a specific PN in ARP's catalog, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Also, does toyota (or anyone else) offer a multi layer steel HG instead of the composite ones? Often there is an MLS "rebuild" gasket for when alot of material has been decked off a head / block.
You'll have to excuse my 80 series ignorance if this has been discussed before.
rich
Also, does toyota (or anyone else) offer a multi layer steel HG instead of the composite ones? Often there is an MLS "rebuild" gasket for when alot of material has been decked off a head / block.
You'll have to excuse my 80 series ignorance if this has been discussed before.
rich
Studs and MLS gaskets have been talked about in previous threads, never heard of anyone actually using them. as for more clampign force, not sure you want that, see doughs cracked head thread.
so far no one has had any troubles with the new redesighned gasket from Toyota.
so far no one has had any troubles with the new redesighned gasket from Toyota.
Getting back to the original subject - Doug mentioned making a system that would alert the driver to a failed head gasket....
I think the easiest way would be an emissions sniffer mounted in the overflow bottle, connected to an alarm circuit. Any trace of combustion gasses would trigger a light and buzzer, and maybe the cell phone
Any reason this would not work?
John Davies
I think the easiest way would be an emissions sniffer mounted in the overflow bottle, connected to an alarm circuit. Any trace of combustion gasses would trigger a light and buzzer, and maybe the cell phone
Any reason this would not work?
John Davies
With a hot fully expanded cooling system contaminated water would likely not make it to the overflow bottle, the sensor needs be drilled in to the block somehow. Measuring variations in temperature between cylinders might be easier. Of course a first step would be for Cruisers to have a coolant temperature gauge that works.
RavenTai said:
Cracked heads are most often from a casting imperfection that comes out over time or from extreme heat cycling, not from bolt loads. Head studs are a much better way to get a reliable HG seal. If I was going through the trouble of doing a HG swap, I'd definitely put a set in.
The re-designed gasket does look to be a much better piece.
rich
Bjowett is using ARP studs in his rebuild IIRC
I have idly wondered about tapping a pressure release/bleeder valve into the t-stat housing to allow the venting of any gas build up. I have no idea whether gas build up behind the t-stat might be part of the problem in the 1fzfe.
I have idly wondered about tapping a pressure release/bleeder valve into the t-stat housing to allow the venting of any gas build up. I have no idea whether gas build up behind the t-stat might be part of the problem in the 1fzfe.
RavenTai said:
Sounds like an ax grinder IE no data just a gripe and advise to write down the service techs name? I'm sure you can find a pissed toyota owner with a warped head who didn't replace it and toasted the engine at 100k and they'd tell you they all do it.
CruiserLegolas said:
I just returned from a 2,000 mile road trip. My rig also overheated last summer briefly when the PHH blew. I felt a little nervous on the trip, but was relieved when i returned home and she was still purring like a kitten with 175,000 on her. I will however do the HG as preventative maintenance though, just not sure when. I hope i can do it before it goes out. So moral of the story is drive it, that's what it was built for.
On another note, i think this is interesting considering that this vehicle and motor are probably one of the most reliable, best built on the road today and Doug got hit twice. So perhaps it's not a maintenance issue but more of a "draw of the straw" type deal. Just speculation. . . . . . . . . . . Dan i hope you don't stick that pin in my doll
DJForrestA said:
The vortecs do have a problem with start up rattle. They also have an undeniable problem with the poppet injectors getting plugged. They also have a pretty big head gasket problem, as all of GMs fine products do since they switched to Dexcool.
Overall, I think it's a fine motor. It ain't no 1FZ though.
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powderpig said:
Words from a very wise man indeed. I agree with you totally robbie. Actually i just returned from a very long road trip. I noticed that when setting the cruise on 55-60 mph the 80 will pull smooth and strong all day long. The gas mileage also was the absolute best at these speeds. As soon as the speed limit increased and i tried to cruise at 70-75 mph i had issues. She just didn't like that speed, especially up hills and my gas mileage really showed. I don't have any actual numbers to back up my claim but i would go out on a limb and say that i lost 2-3 mpg between 60 mph and 70 mph.
- Thread starter
- #119
Ah, posting from balmy Florida. Got worst-in-my-life flulike virus Tues nite and departure 6am Wed. As soon as I knew I was in trouble, started pounding electrolyte tabs from my bike racing kit. Slept maybe 20 minutes all night and all of that on the floor of the bathroom. Excellent weight loss program.
Robbie. Interestingly, I have an oil sample for Blackstone that I did not mail. It is from the period before the trouble began so I'll see if it existed when I bought it. I suspect not as I put some 6000 miles on with an oil change and all appeared normal.
I think the debate about an engine swap is interesting and relevant but that a swap's cost and complexity make it a solution matched to someone willing to pay for its improvements. DJ is clearly that kind of guy, and it seems for most of us FZJ guys the performance of our 80s is above the threshold we'd consider it. The FZJ is no powerhouse but it is ample. We are growing up in times where even a family sedan will get to 60 in 8 seconds so our performance sense is/has changed considerably from 15 years ago when a sports car did well to beat 8 seconds. The low end Toyota SUV - RAV4 - will have an optional engine that gets it to 60 in 6.2 seconds or something. Incredible.
The FZJ is a low stressed engine with regard to its internals, and will simply run forever if kept in high cotton on fluids. It's a bummer that the HG material was indeed likely a design that suffered from the then recent asbestos ban and is the weak link. But changing one out is not as costly as the failures that darken some other designs in this mile range (150k). With a new gasket, the FZJ will simply hum along again.
With regard to my situation, I suspect the recent failure simply highlighted the aluminum/iron matchup. It was a very cold day, and I was frantically running last minute errands for my trip. Lots of 10-20 minute shutdowns in 20 degree air followed by some brisk driving immediately on startup, so I'd guess a lot of major heat cycles and the adhesive bond in the weakened #6 area finally let go. Perfect timing as it turned out. But I'll have no problem beating the living crap out of either engine this coming summer
No worries whatsoever.
No reason to think a commonality existed here. Both were in their 'rest' period not towing, both full of proper coolant, M1 oil, good state of tune. The 93 has been burbling along wth 4 extra degrees of advance for 50,000 miles, the 97 was at stock timing. Both get predominantly Chevron mid grade or premium fuel, plugs have been coming out normal, factory air filters, etc.
Dunno for sure why now, but that's my input. For my use, the engine is a good match and while inconvenient, a new HG is but a speedbump in the life of a vehicle that I fully expect will still have my name on it when I die.
DougM
Robbie. Interestingly, I have an oil sample for Blackstone that I did not mail. It is from the period before the trouble began so I'll see if it existed when I bought it. I suspect not as I put some 6000 miles on with an oil change and all appeared normal.
I think the debate about an engine swap is interesting and relevant but that a swap's cost and complexity make it a solution matched to someone willing to pay for its improvements. DJ is clearly that kind of guy, and it seems for most of us FZJ guys the performance of our 80s is above the threshold we'd consider it. The FZJ is no powerhouse but it is ample. We are growing up in times where even a family sedan will get to 60 in 8 seconds so our performance sense is/has changed considerably from 15 years ago when a sports car did well to beat 8 seconds. The low end Toyota SUV - RAV4 - will have an optional engine that gets it to 60 in 6.2 seconds or something. Incredible.
The FZJ is a low stressed engine with regard to its internals, and will simply run forever if kept in high cotton on fluids. It's a bummer that the HG material was indeed likely a design that suffered from the then recent asbestos ban and is the weak link. But changing one out is not as costly as the failures that darken some other designs in this mile range (150k). With a new gasket, the FZJ will simply hum along again.
With regard to my situation, I suspect the recent failure simply highlighted the aluminum/iron matchup. It was a very cold day, and I was frantically running last minute errands for my trip. Lots of 10-20 minute shutdowns in 20 degree air followed by some brisk driving immediately on startup, so I'd guess a lot of major heat cycles and the adhesive bond in the weakened #6 area finally let go. Perfect timing as it turned out. But I'll have no problem beating the living crap out of either engine this coming summer
No worries whatsoever. No reason to think a commonality existed here. Both were in their 'rest' period not towing, both full of proper coolant, M1 oil, good state of tune. The 93 has been burbling along wth 4 extra degrees of advance for 50,000 miles, the 97 was at stock timing. Both get predominantly Chevron mid grade or premium fuel, plugs have been coming out normal, factory air filters, etc.
Dunno for sure why now, but that's my input. For my use, the engine is a good match and while inconvenient, a new HG is but a speedbump in the life of a vehicle that I fully expect will still have my name on it when I die.
DougM
IdahoDoug said:
With your current flu, I hope thats not anytime soon. Get well Doug. You notice at the bottom of the FAQ there is a history of your troubles?