woooody said:This HAS to be the most ignorant, assinine comment yet.
With what I have seen from him so far, I'm sure he will top that
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woooody said:This HAS to be the most ignorant, assinine comment yet.
TexasBadlands said:A 37" tire will dig the crap out of the mud deeper than a 33" tire. Are you stupid, or just ignorant? How many times have I come across a trail that had ruts so deep from other guys with their monster tires digging to china and we with smaller tires straddle around them (creating MORE errosion for your information)???
TexasBadlands said:I always stay on designated trails when a trail system is already in place, and I never tear up a trail. I have never exceeded 33" tires - the larger tires tear the $hit out of dirt trails when they are wet. So who is tearing up the trails? How about LC owners with 37" tires etc?
ginericfj80 said:One other thing for all of you to consider. A change in your vocabulary will greatly help the cause. Using the words "Off Road" implies to some environmental and government groups that you are not on a road or a trail which is definitely not a good thing is this day and age. Trail, 4wd Road, and Off Pavement are better descriptors.
TexasBadlands on tire size and ruts said:we with smaller tires straddle around them (creating MORE errosion for your information)???
ginericfj80 said:One other thing for all of you to consider. A change in your vocabulary will greatly help the cause. Using the words "Off Road" implies to some environmental and government groups that you are not on a road or a trail which is definitely not a good thing is this day and age. Trail, 4wd Road, and Off Pavement are better descriptors.
"...Yes, people with agendas are watching. We've seen proof of that here this last few weeks. Give them cannon fodder thru your actions on the trail, and your words here in a public and highly visible forum, and watch where they will pop back up and get used against all of us. Measure your words and actions...."
"So, it seems that we all want one thing in the end, and that's a place to wheel. While I agree that Public Lands should be for everyone, I don't see a problem with designating those areas for our particular type of recreation. That being said, the number of OHV areas on public lands are ever decreasing. The USFS and other land managment agencies are under huge amounts of pressure to develop and follow their land managment plans. Both from above and from non-governmental organizations (NGOs). It's a tough position they are in because the old saying is true, they can't make all of the people happy all of the time.
If a land use manager in 'my' employ (you know, the govt. employee who hates to be referred to in that manner because it simply turns around the "we're God" attitude sometimes prevalent) believes that he or she is in a 'tough' position on some of these issues....they most certainly should not have applied for that job in the first place. I have never criticized these employees for 'doing their job'....it's the evasive "we don't have to explain ourselves" attitude that has gotten many of them their deserved bad reputation in the first place. (which 'here' is followed up by our own orv leaders acting in the exact same manner).
"....So what's the solution here? I believe that we (full size off-pavement, off-road, whatever) can co-exist with a little education and with a little cooperation - on BOTH sides. Or more correctly, on ALL sides. Many of the NGO's don't understand what wheeling is about...."
Again, the situation is much different here in Michigan.
These guys/gals know very well what in the heck these sports are all about; with some of them having been involved with these programs for decades.
And as far as "education" goes?....there is either a shameless effort to keep the inner workings of these individual's everyday efforts under continual drawn-out wraps or outright attacks on those seeking this same knowledge.
When a land manager refuses for years to even publish the contact info for a hand-picked board that he shoves down the public's throats with even his own meeting summaries....please don't talk to me about "education" on the public's part.
"...Well, I can understand that because as I read this thread, it sounds like WE can't all agree what wheeling is about. I practice and preach treadlightly. I think that people who blaze new trails on public lands are putting the future of my hobby in jeopardy. I want to go into the wilderness and enjoy my time looking at the scenery and putting my truck through some obstacles that are challenging for me. I don't go out there planning on digging holes, tearing up trees, and blazing new trails..."
The main thing "we" can't seem to agree on here in Michigan is who is going to get the lion's share of a multi-million dollar fee increase that spends the least amount of money on actually fixing and maintaining a several thousand mile long trail system to environmentally responsible strandards. These orv clubs don't want the for-profit privitization that would do the job right and effectively take away their funding...with the unacceptable end result also being increased fees out of their pockets to pay for their non-2-wheeled land raping 'brothers' in thecommunity.
"....Individual locations are currently under fire and it's the responsibility of our local "leaders" to monitor and comment on all actions that would impact our ability to wheel on public lands.....'
When your 'leaders' are hiding behind councils that they choose not to reveal and advisory boards that they won't even publish their contact info regarding....these 'leaders' can spin those issues any which way they wish as evidenced by Polaris' recent efforts here in Michigan to simply create a true multi-use system.
Again, our national orv leaders know all about this and who is involved in this cloak and dagger crap...and it has been simply their consensus that the average wheeler out there is but a peon with their "uninformed' opinions or thoughts on true multi-use trails and finally working TOGETHER.
"...However, many of the comments that the USFS gets are not productive and are certainly not cooperative (like standing up in a public meeting and ranting like a lunatic...I have seen it happen! It's an emotional subject for many of us, but we need to control our actions so we don't look like the yahoos they think we are!)..."
I rest my case.
If you're not out there agreeing with every darn thing that a local/national orv leader or land-manager under your employ has tos ay at a quarterly public meeting that they have absolutely no obligation to speak a word to what you request anyways....then you're either a damn trouble maker or a lunatic.
And tell me....I'm supposed to send in my money to groups like the BRC or NOHVCC because they speak more"intelligently" to people who treat us likecrapin thefirst place while our local leaders just sit there and grin?
"...Land managment agencies have processes that they follow to make decisions, including and offical process to designate OHV trail systems. Unless we show them that we want to work with them in that process, help educate them and the NGO's on what we do, why, and how we can help mitigate damage that we might cause, the availability of land is going to continue to dwindle...."
I'm all with you on the mitigation and pay through the nose for our sins part, my friend....yet can you nameone local, regional or national organization out there suggesting that fees be increased to do this or better yet....that their own members send incash directly to this cause instead of their tidy little write-off-everything-we-do non-profits?
For pete's sakes...our last orv leadership sponsored fee proposal here suggested tripling the amount given to trainers administering classes at $60 per student....and no changes in the formula for everyday enforcement, restoration and maintenance!
When somebody from one of these national orv organizations finally has the stones to comment on any of this after learning of same...I'll think about sending them more money for their efforts. Until then, it's no small wonder why so many good people have been turned away over the years from ever participating in critical orv matters in the first place.
"...I believe that there are 3 kinds of people, those that follow the system to the letter, those that buck the system completely, and those that use the system to get what they want. We need to stay away from the first 2 and become the latter..."
People:
I'm disappointed in many of you here. I like the majority of this thread, and dissent and disagreement are part of a healthy democracy...BUT!
I will not tolerate some of the language used here. I will not tolerate some of that attitudes going back and forth here. Find a way to disagree respectfully. I don't want to come back and edit for language, attitude or wahtever. Make me, and you'll get locked out, mmm'kay? This isn't "those other forums" where that attitude will be tolerated, or at least not here in the TLCA section.