SQOD Squad - Stupid Question Of the Day

[bloc]

Lastly the TPMS system is not a critical flight system;

You may not think so, but the laws mandate it.. and as a result some unknown number of people have caught underinflated tires before they failed, because they wouldn't be able to do so without a light on the dash.

 

[siberian]

That may be so but you do NOT disable all other tire data just hoping that by doing so you'll get someone's attention. At that point why not just disable the entire engine?

Like the front camera idiocy, it does seem like the T engineer/designers are trying to get the Fickle Finger Fate Award off the P folks

siberian

 

[Sajan]

That may be so but you do NOT disable all other tire data just hoping that by doing so you'll get someone's attention. At that point why not just disable the entire engine?

Like the front camera idiocy, it does seem like the T engineer/designers are trying to get the Fickle Finger Fate Award off the P folks

siberian

someone here will defend everything Toyota does as the pinnacle of automotive engineering. go over to the porsche forum, same thing, no way porsche engineers are wrong.

The law just states:

1. The TPMS is required to detect and to provide a warning to the driver within 20 minutes of when the pressure of one or more of the vehicle's tires, up to a total of four tires, is 25 percent or more below the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for the tires
2. The TPMS must also include a TPMS malfunction indicator to alert the driver when the system is non-operational, and thus unable to provide the required low tire pressure warning.

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.federalregister.gov

the law doesn't say to disable every single reading from working sensors. it's basically putting the entire system into fault mode because it lost a reading...zero thought about whether that reading was from a critical mounted tire...or a spare.

 

[TeCKis300]

With all due respect, "Assuming worst case, a serious error will prompt a more immediate user intervention." I sincerely doubt it. 40 years in real time computing and networks, has repeatedly shown me that you can never make anything idiot proof as imbeciles are so ingenious.

Lastly the TPMS system is not a critical flight system; OTOH it would have been preferable for Toyota to take a minute or two and deal with the floor mat design disaster that had a lot more critical failure impact than mask all data if one component fails.

But of course YMMV

siberian

considering the # of people driving around with the TPMS light on, I am going to argue people don't take it very seriously.

going by your engineering flight systems, if something is wrong with an engine, you don't show all engines are dead.

i am going to die on this hill. there's absolutely zero reason that the system needs to scare me with a TPMS error because a freaking spare tire TPMS battery is dead.

Don't make a hill and I encourage y'all to do your own research. I've been wrong plenty of times and the discussion is worth more than conclusions.

I more than most hate when data is masked, but these systems aren't designed for only me/us.

Yes, tires are not flight critical, but surely safety critical. Safety critical creates it's own set of data driven technical decision.

You guys are trying to apply common sense. But common sense is not common When a real accident happen - finger pointing goes to these systems.

 

[siberian]

@Sajan mentioned, folks in the P forum are still defending the indefensible, so to be consistent I rant about it here as well as there (and the P list is long...).

Tires are of course critical, perhaps not at the same level as hydraulic control failures in airplanes but they still are a safety issue. I don't think anyone will argue that. What I'm alluding to is to disable all data just to underscore the importance is ,IMHO of course, inane. It not only doesn't narrow down the problem but simply presents the user on a dark night, snowing buckets (Murphy works best under those conditions) that he has an issue with the tires. He/she doesn't know which or what the issue is (sensor, tire...). The conundrum, this late at night, has his undivided attention that on a country lane he will now immediately address not knowing what he's addressing. But it "should" have his attention. The likely response is "I'll deal with it tomorrow" where upon it is filed away.

I think they're addressing the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

siberian

 

[Heckraiser]

Proud to say the TPMS dash light is currently on in all three of my vehicles LX and miata have missing sensors, tesla, I just choose to use lower than recommended psi for ride comfort (well within the parameters of the tire itself). I grew up in an era where one checked tire pressure regularly with a good old gauge and I continue to do so.

 

[Sajan]

@Sajan mentioned, folks in the P forum are still defending the indefensible, so to be consistent I rant about it here as well as there (and the P list is long...).

Tires are of course critical, perhaps not at the same level as hydraulic control failures in airplanes but they still are a safety issue. I don't think anyone will argue that. What I'm alluding to is to disable all data just to underscore the importance is ,IMHO of course, inane. It not only doesn't narrow down the problem but simply presents the user on a dark night, snowing buckets (Murphy works best under those conditions) that he has an issue with the tires. He/she doesn't know which or what the issue is (sensor, tire...). The conundrum, this late at night, has his undivided attention that on a country lane he will now immediately address not knowing what he's addressing. But it "should" have his attention. The likely response is "I'll deal with it tomorrow" where upon it is filed away.

I think they're addressing the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

siberian

Correct. I am not arguing against a warning, or a TPMS light being on because a sensor is dead/missing data.
I am arguing against the asinine decision to not show any data from working sensors, especially if all 4 working sensors are the mounted tires.
Heck, it even helps with troubleshooting which sensor is dead.

 

[siberian]

Is there an echo here?

siberian

 

[TeCKis300]

Correct. I am not arguing against a warning, or a TPMS light being on because a sensor is dead/missing data.
I am arguing against the asinine decision to not show any data from working sensors, especially if all 4 working sensors are the mounted tires.
Heck, it even helps with troubleshooting which sensor is dead.

@Sajan mentioned, folks in the P forum are still defending the indefensible, so to be consistent I rant about it here as well as there (and the P list is long...).

Tires are of course critical, perhaps not at the same level as hydraulic control failures in airplanes but they still are a safety issue. I don't think anyone will argue that. What I'm alluding to is to disable all data just to underscore the importance is ,IMHO of course, inane. It not only doesn't narrow down the problem but simply presents the user on a dark night, snowing buckets (Murphy works best under those conditions) that he has an issue with the tires. He/she doesn't know which or what the issue is (sensor, tire...). The conundrum, this late at night, has his undivided attention that on a country lane he will now immediately address not knowing what he's addressing. But it "should" have his attention. The likely response is "I'll deal with it tomorrow" where upon it is filed away.

I think they're addressing the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

siberian

Case in point, the typical tendency is to diagnose, perhaps while still driving down the road.

The safety critical intent is to get the vehicle stopped so the driver gets out and puts eyes on the tires.

 

[Sajan]

Case in point, the typical tendency is to diagnose, perhaps while still driving down the road.

The safety critical intent is to get the vehicle stopped so the driver gets out and puts eyes on the tires.

You're making my case for me.
Diagnose, move on if not serious.
If my mounted tire went blank at highway speeds, I will pull over and verify it's okay.
If my spare did that, I would roll my eyes and move on.

 

[bloc]

If my spare did that, I would roll my eyes and move on.

08-15 don't detect installed sensor position so it would have no idea whether it's a spare or not.

Want another annoying TPMS trait? I can't set the system to the appropriate altitude-corrected pressures for stock tire size/load when I go to colorado because the absolute readings would be below the stock RCTIP - 10% concrete threshold programmed into their systems.

I agree going to the letter of the law vs the spirit of it is probably at play here. My point above was merely that we usually don't have access to toyota's reasoning on these things. At the time they did what they thought was legal/logical/economic/whatever. We ended up with great vehicles that annoy us in specific and relatively minor ways, compared to what would await us with so many other platforms.

Edit to add: factory sensors pretty routinely last 7-8 years. I think I've read about 10-11 before. It's not like this is a common occurrence and can't be planned for.

 

[gasman4u]

coming up on 100k on my '21. I'm planning on doing some PM with this milestone beyond the usual fluids/filters. Is there a common milestone for the thermostat to need changing? I've seen the waterpump not being recommended to be changed as PM at this mileage unless weeping. Any other considerations for 100k PM?

 

[linuxgod]

coming up on 100k on my '21. I'm planning on doing some PM with this milestone beyond the usual fluids/filters. Is there a common milestone for the thermostat to need changing? I've seen the waterpump not being recommended to be changed as PM at this mileage unless weeping. Any other considerations for 100k PM?

My water pump went to 160k. I wouldn’t swap it proactively unless you’re also doing the radiator as it’ll be a slow weep when it goes and you’ll notice coolant on the ground under the truck well before it’s a major issue.

Do the thermostat when you do the water pump because it’s right there and just a few bucks. But they really last longer than the water pump so no need to do it otherwise.

 

[gasman4u]

My water pump went to 160k. I wouldn’t swap it proactively unless you’re also doing the radiator as it’ll be a slow weep when it goes and you’ll notice coolant on the ground under the truck well before it’s a major issue.

Do the thermostat when you do the water pump because it’s right there and just a few bucks. But they really last longer than the water pump so no need to do it otherwise.

Ty. I’ll push to 150k as PM.

 

[kcjaz]

08-15 don't detect installed sensor position so it would have no idea whether it's a spare or not.

Want another annoying TPMS trait? I can't set the system to the appropriate altitude-corrected pressures for stock tire size/load when I go to colorado because the absolute readings would be below the stock RCTIP - 10% concrete threshold programmed into their systems.

I agree going to the letter of the law vs the spirit of it is probably at play here. My point above was merely that we usually don't have access to toyota's reasoning on these things. At the time they did what they thought was legal/logical/economic/whatever. We ended up with great vehicles that annoy us in specific and relatively minor ways, compared to what would await us with so many other platforms.

Edit to add: factory sensors pretty routinely last 7-8 years. I think I've read about 10-11 before. It's not like this is a common occurrence and can't be planned for.

Pretty sure that the TPMS behavior is due to the split tail gate…

 

[siberian]

Totally! Reason I don't do mountains...

siberian