Noisy Front Suspension -- BP51 --thinking about selling (1 Viewer)

[hedd]

This is an interesting thread to follow, I will be upgrading the suspension on my LC at some point and ARB is a top contender. What I am most curious about is how this problem wasn't caught in the Australian market. Yes, in general it's warmer there but that country can seriously abuse suspension. It's the only place I have overheated a suspension system to the point of totally fading - this was in a landcruiser troop carrier with nearly stock suspension. The lack of controlled suspension was so bad I needed to stop and let it cool off....just after that I also realized that the eggs in the ARB fridge were broken and a bottle had unscrewed its top from the vibration. The corrugations on Cape York are brutal and can go on for miles and miles. It's a place where I can understand why they would want a system like the bp-51.

I have high end suspension on several motorcycles and mountain bikes, they are ridden year around and the suspension is worked...oil flow when it's cold can sometimes be noticed but usually isn't an issues when warmed up. Clunking that's not bottoming is not something that I am familiar with.

What is their clunk like? Is it a jarring clunk that feels like the suspension is bottoming or locking? Or is it just a noise with suspension that behaves as it should? Does it go away when the suspension warms up?

 

[Markuson]

Man, I really do understand the frustration. I own these shocks, and have posted about it.

But... The BPs are very effective performance-wise, aside from the clunk thing, and I do think ARB is doing what they can to deal with it.

I would describe the BPs this way:

BP-51s perform extremely well in all types of terrain. Yes, they really do. Seriously...these things really handle everything from smooth, bumpy, speed with huge juts, holes and bumps right in the middle of hard turns *extremely* well.

But there are issues. ARB has already dealt with two of them.
-The rock guard and racing-style seals that led to their own issues have been resolved.

I'm sure they did plenty of hard runs in Australia...but how many snowy peaks do they have there? I have a feeling this was an honest surprise and they are dealing with something they likely did not see in their neck of the woods. I think they are making a real effort to address it.

Some companies are absolute issue deniers, but ARB/OME didn't do that. They have been easy to deal with and very up-front about what they're doing.

-Many NEVER admit to problems & I'm glad they aren't like that.

Personal example: Canon is a world class professional camera maker...** BUT...they were TERRIBLE about admitting there weee flaws when things went fundamentally wrong. I went through 18 months to 2 years regarding a very expensive professional DSLR some years ago--Canon's flagship model at the time that is many photographer's bread-and-butter Camera body. It took a HUUUGE groundswell of photographers, and some of us actually going into their labs to prove the issue....and even THEN they denied its existence!! It was **obvious** ...and even with in-their-lab PROOF, they would not acknowledge it. It was maddeningly-blatant denial.

Later on, I Learned that until they knew how to fix it...they were simply going to deny it existed entirely. This was incredibly frustrating. If I had not already owned about $20,000 in high end lenses, I would have switched brands. Even when it was beyond dispute...and they attempted to fix it...they STILL would not even privately acknowledge the flaw was real. It was stunning.

In contrast, ARB/OME has never denied anything, and began immediately investigating.
That doesn't fix the cold issue yet, but they have been super accommodating, and required nothing but simple proof of purchase to send new rears when they saw photos of my issues.

The replacements had been updated. I don't have those installed yet...but I can only wish that Canon was as easy to deal with as OME has been. I didn't have to take off the current units, or rent a car while it was in the mail...they just sent the updated stuff straight away.

None of that makes this a non issue, but I do appreciate their response and willingness to deal with it head on.

I'm not sure what else they can do than what they are doing.

At some point, we all get to decide whether to give up and do something else...and just today I was talking to a fellow murder about the frustration. I think their treatment of me and others here has been solid and straight forward. Their contact guy has answered every email and I appreciate that.

 

[Virgilus11]

This is an interesting thread to follow, I will be upgrading the suspension on my LC at some point and ARB is a top contender. What I am most curious about is how this problem wasn't caught in the Australian market. Yes, in general it's warmer there but that country can seriously abuse suspension. It's the only place I have overheated a suspension system to the point of totally fading - this was in a landcruiser troop carrier with nearly stock suspension. The lack of controlled suspension was so bad I needed to stop and let it cool off....just after that I also realized that the eggs in the ARB fridge were broken and a bottle had unscrewed its top from the vibration. The corrugations on Cape York are brutal and can go on for miles and miles. It's a place where I can understand why they would want a system like the bp-51.

I have high end suspension on several motorcycles and mountain bikes, they are ridden year around and the suspension is worked...oil flow when it's cold can sometimes be noticed but usually isn't an issues when warmed up. Clunking that's not bottoming is not something that I am familiar with.

What is their clunk like? Is it a jarring clunk that feels like the suspension is bottoming or locking? Or is it just a noise with suspension that behaves as it should? Does it go away when the suspension warms up?

I can't talk for others but in my case.
If you have a mountain bike with an air shock in the back then is pretty close. I ride a Cannondale Prophet Lefty . In winter i release some of the pressure from the air shocks to protect the seals. In spring if you don't put the air back to match the rider weight and the right pressure in the piggy back ,,,you feel the shock hitting hard when you go over the bumps. Hard tump. Even if the spring is there to pick the weight, the piston hits a sudden resistance.
This happening on compression and rebound. It feels like the liquid is not traveling quick enough from one chamber to the other. or you don't have the right pressure. If you increase the rebound and compression the sound tend to diminish but you loose the comfort.
Yes , it goes away when is warmer outside but I leave in NE and is cold here. At list four months a year.

 

[Obi Wong Kenobi]

I'm sorry to be in the minority in this thread, but when did this topic turn from informative to just whining? Yes you're frustrated, but I don't think this thread has been constructive for the past 3 pages.

ARB/OME took a huge leap into making a high end suspension product and are doing their best to rectify issues that have been popping up. So far, I think they're doing a good job with most of your situations.

Lastly, the market for the 200 series is just starting to sprout with new products and manufacturers jumping into the fold. But if I was a company and saw this type of lynch mob mentality happening even though ARB is making a genuine effort to fix things, I wouldn't bother making new products for this platform's small market. Just saying...

 

[Virgilus11]

I'm sorry to be in the minority in this thread, but when did this topic turn from informative to just whining? Yes you're frustrated, but I don't think this thread has been constructive for the past 3 pages.

ARB/OME took a huge leap into making a high end suspension product and are doing their best to rectify issues that have been popping up. So far, I think they're doing a good job with most of your situations.

Lastly, the market for the 200 series is just starting to sprout with new products and manufacturers jumping into the fold. But if I was a company and saw this type of lynch mob mentality happening even though ARB is making a genuine effort to fix things, I wouldn't bother making new products for this platform's small market. Just saying...

You are right the post did turned into less informative. ARB can fix this by having one of his guys calm and reassure people.

So far ARB did not call me or email to me once. An apology, a promise , inform me that they are working on and be patient. Something that would make me think that they care. If this is what we consider, these days ,Customer relationship ?? Then I am definitely old fashion and not even 50.

The market it may be a small niche in USA, where the market turned more to CUV but not the rest of the world. Body on frame is still the way to go in the rest of the world and Toyota LC 200 or Prado is still considered the best choice if you want to cross Siberia or Australia.
Based on how many aftermarket products are popping up everyday for these trucks, ( as you said), I know they are smelling blood and they don't see it as a small niche.

At the end of the day, to tell you the truth , I don't really care if I have to spend another $4k to replace and go to another option. This is a question of principle. I feel obligated to the next person that see my truck passing by with big shiny wheels and fancy suspension. He does not deserve to go thru the same hustle.
Without whining on these forums, you, I, we, would be naked. No defense.
My whining guarantee that in two years from now, when Johnny or Joe decide to modify theirs truck ? They will be purchasing a well tested product. As advertised. Without flaws.

 

[Obi Wong Kenobi]

You are right the post did turned into less informative. ARB can fix this by having one of his guys calm and reassure people.

So far ARB did not call me or email to me once. An apology, a promise , inform me that they are working on and be patient. Something that would make me think that they care. If this is what we consider, these days ,Customer relationship ?? Then I am definitely old fashion and not even 50.

The market it may be a small niche in USA, where the market turned more to CUV but not the rest of the world. Body on frame is still the way to go in the rest of the world and Toyota LC 200 or Prado is still considered the best choice if you want to cross Siberia or Australia.
Based on how many aftermarket products are popping up everyday for these trucks, ( as you said), I know they are smelling blood and they don't see it as a small niche.

At the end of the day, to tell you the truth , I don't really care if I have to spend another $4k to replace and go to another option. This is a question of principle. I feel obligated to the next person that see my truck passing by with big shiny wheels and fancy suspension. He does not deserve to go thru the same hustle.
Without whining on these forums, you, I, we, would be naked. No defense.
My whining guarantee that in two years from now, when Johnny or Joe decide to modify theirs truck ? They will be purchasing a well tested product. As advertised. Without flaws.

Whenever going aftermarket, you're going to risk flaws and/or noises. It's just how the game goes. Especially when it comes to coilovers. I'm actually surprised I don't hear more clunks when I hit the railroad tracks at 50mph with a 6,000lbs truck. It's also definitely much quieter than the suspension on my other car that was twice as much as these were.

If you've contactsd ARB and they haven't gotten back to you over your concerns, that's another story. I would reach out to them in a calm manner and reach out to your vendor who supplied you the suspension. Maybe they can assist in contacting ARB too.

 

[Virgilus11]

Whenever going aftermarket, you're going to risk flaws and/or noises. It's just how the game goes. Especially when it comes to coilovers. I'm actually surprised I don't hear more clunks when I hit the railroad tracks at 50mph with a 6,000lbs truck. It's also definitely much quieter than the suspension on my other car that was twice as much as these were.

If you've contactsd ARB and they haven't gotten back to you over your concerns, that's another story. I would reach out to them in a calm manner and reach out to your vendor who supplied you the suspension. Maybe they can assist in contacting ARB too.

I know that I may sound inflame here but in reality, I am not. Just frustrated with the lack of reaction from them. I did reach to ARB, very politely, three times and they have my info. Not once did they get back to me. The shop that did the installation, Overland is trying to help but he is getting no answer either. Over four months.

How understanding should I continue to be and for how long when ARB doesn't even acknowledge my existence. You pocket my $7 grand, walk away then I should be the one apologizing for been uneducated.
Well, I will do it . If this is what will take to have them return one call at list.

 

[Dan Higgins]

I, for one, am thankful for this thread. Even the so called whining. I am new to all this. I am naive when it comes to modifying my truck - which is a new 2016 model so not something I can just throw junk at. It is easy to ready all of the positive comments on forums like this and think, "Oh, wow. I need to do that, too.", while not realizing that downsides to doing modifications. This thread reminded me that there is a downside risk to doing mods and that I need to better understand that before jumping in. The sunshine blowing that can happen on forums need to be balanced with the downside realities as people like me are coming here to get "impressions" if not always fact-based information.

So, for example, hearing people rave about how well something "performs" needs to sometimes be balance with things like, the need for regular maintenance, the risks to your warranty, the cost and potential for quality control issues. Some of us buy a Toyota because we very highly value reliability above all else. But once you start doing mods it is no longer just a Toyota. It is a Toyota plus something else. And when people tell me that Toyota's suspension systems are not that good and these other options are "upgrades", what the heck does that mean? What does "upgrade" mean? More reliable? More dependable? Or just different?

So, again, I appreciate the rants. No, they don't usually solve anything. And they can get old after a while. But these are personal opinion forums just like most everything else on the internet. And the rants balance the "raves" with reality.

BTW, I am no longer considering the BP51's due to this thread - and I view that as a very good thing. I am one of those who might have been drawn into the raves about performance and the foolish perception that because they cost more than the simpler Nitros but less than the Icons they would be a good middle ground. The reality is they are probably more than I need and more headache than I want - at any price. So this thread has saved me from a regrettable mistake.

 

[Markuson]

My whining guarantee that in two years from now, when Johnny or Joe decide to modify theirs truck ? They will be purchasing a well tested product. As advertised. Without flaws.

Whining "guarantees" we'll only buy flawless products?

I suggest a different tone when you contact ARB.

They have answered every single email I've sent to date--no whining involved.
Perhaps you are talking to the wrong department.

 

[TonyP]

One thing I've learned over the years of business dealings, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. There does come a time for a hardline stance but this isn't the case (just yet).

As for "whining", when I order a cheeseburger and onion rings from a restaurant and they bring me a cheeseburger and fries, I'll "whine". I don't say "well they tried their best" and eat it anyway.

Again, no skin in the game, just a consumer advocate.

 

[Markuson]

One thing I've learned over the years of business dealings, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. There does come a time for a hardline stance but this isn't the case (just yet).

As for "whining", when I order a cheeseburger and onion rings from a restaurant and they bring me a cheeseburger and fries, I'll "whine". I don't say "well they tried their best" and eat it anyway.

My take: Whining is tone & approach. Not content. No one likes to reward whining.

 

[Virgilus11]

You all have have some good point. Everybody hates whining. I don't get it either when people do that. Till it hits me. I will be a good boy for another month. Let's see if in one month they can come up with something.

 

[Forrest Murphy]

For the record I have Internal Bypass Shock that is not a BP-51 on my 200 with tooless (if that is a word) compression adjustment. It is an effective 2 zone shock, that the second zone works like a hydraulic bump stop. I have a little more drup than the BP-51s but at the same time I am running a little less lift than I was with BP51s. I also like the fact I can adjust the coil height on the fronts without taking the whole front end apart. They new system rides like a dream, quite, in all temps and all road/track conditions. I find moving tire pressure a couple PSI either way and compression adjustment on the shocks allows a vast range of handling and ride quality adjustment.

I also have eibach 700 lbs linear springs on the front vs the BP-51 progressive. I am not sure it makes alot engineering sense to have one spring that can cover the gamut of sprung and unsprung weights of all the different 200 builds out there.

I am riding with King Springs in the rear now 50MM lift, which are a progressive rate, with air bags. Since installing the king springs I have not really have to use the air bags other than the 5psi minimal operating pressure. It was a PIA to source the springs but Arich and I found a eBay store that ships to the USA. Ironically, I had my king spring shipped from Australia in 3 days via DHL and the eibachs shipped from CA in 2 days. For the record I also shifted to King Springs now on my JKU Heep.

There are so many variables that goes into suspension engineering, sprung / un sprung weights, spring rates of tires, etc. It really is a tough nut to crack.

 

[Redbull]

BTW, I am no longer considering the BP51's due to this thread - and I view that as a very good thing. I am one of those who might have been drawn into the raves about performance and the foolish perception that because they cost more than the simpler Nitros but less than the Icons they would be a good middle ground. The reality is they are probably more than I need and more headache than I want - at any price. So this thread has saved me from a regrettable mistake.

I went with Icon stage 2 because of this thread and @Markuson 's advice. However, I will consider ARB first when it comes time for a 300 series suspension.

ARB is great to acknowledge the problem - something you can't expect from most companies these days.

I've been dreaming about a 200 series for about five years before I got one this year and the two brands that really supported the 200 series from the beginning were @sleeoffroad and ARB.

For that reason and their quality is why I will go to them first. I have Slee sliders and love them. Now I just need some heavier springs so I can get some ARB bumpers

 

[Markuson]

My typical suggestion is... Call and talk to @sleeoffroad about what to buy...
If I need advice, I look to Slee...and some amazingly knowledgeable folks on this forum who know a ton. I have a lot to learn.

The only hesitation with the BPs is that I know they are still working on a final revision to the fronts.
So if you need a whole new setup RIGHT NOW, you might find that a revision is just around the corner & maybe that could sway someone.
But for performance and handling? -The BPs have been amazing. Hopefully ARB/OME's diligence arrives at a final solution that puts this question to rest.

 

[linuxgod]

For the record I have Internal Bypass Shock that is not a BP-51...there are so many variables that goes into suspension engineering, sprung / un sprung weights, spring rates of tires, etc. It really is a tough nut to crack.

If you're ever up in Chicago I'd love to check out your build.

 

[dukmon]

One thing I've learned over the years of business dealings, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I thought the saying goes "You can catch flies with honey but you can catch more honeys being fly?"

 

[Oz200]

I'm wondering if other truck platforms are having issues with the BP51 or is this a 200 specific issue.

Yep, all platform BP51's have the same issue. It's from the tolerances, not found on every shock, some do it, some don't. The noise is a hydraulic knock, so no, not doing any harm to any other components.

 

[apinti]

Yep, all platform BP51's have the same issue. It's from the tolerances, not found on every shock, some do it, some don't. The noise is a hydraulic knock, so no, not doing any harm to any other components.

Sounds like a quality control issue. Do you know who fabricates them for ARB? Monroe?

 

[Oz200]

Pretty positive they make them in-house, I'll find out from my inside man
All other ARB shocks (OME) are made by Monroe, and to be honest, if you're not doing lots of constant long distance corrugated roads etc they are a better option.