My Caster readings...4" lift

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I love how the trucks are all different. I'm picking up the arms on saturday and will see how they work with my setup. If there is tons of vibrations we'll be moving on to a different caster approach. If she drive's straight and is vib-free...then we'll just allign and go.
 
Mickldo said:
My lift has 23 3/4" F&R hub to flare. I had -2.5* castor. The wheel alignment shop told me that I needed 1* (I didn't check here first) so I went looking for 3.5* of castor correction. In OZ all you can get is 2.5* or 3* bushes, 5.5* castor plates or ?*drop arms. As I was under the impression I needed 3.5* I went for the 3* bushes as I didn't want to go to far due to the oversize chromemoly tie rod that I run maybe hitting on the control arm. This has only given me 0.5* castor. It turned out that there is enough room for the tie rod. I am happy with the improvement in handling compared to before but when these bushes wear out I'll replace them with 5.5* plates or drop arms to suit the lift.

There's a shop in OZ that is selling 5* bushings. Do an ebay search.

Nay
 
5* is right in the vib zone for alot of trucks and some have had damage to the axle from the limited amount of restriction of the OME bushings and those would seem to be worse.

No offense to Frankies, but if he's jumping straight into a 4" lift and counting on these to easliy solve his caster issues, I think he's got some exciting times heading his way.
 
landtank said:
5* is right in the vib zone for alot of trucks and some have had damage to the axle from the limited amount of restriction of the OME bushings and those would seem to be worse.

No offense to Frankies, but if he's jumping straight into a 4" lift and counting on these to easliy solve his caster issues, I think he's got some exciting times heading his way.

I think F.O.R. is releasing a 3" lift and will be offering the 3* version if they test in an acceptable range.

I emailed the owner Hobzee asking about the flex issue (those 5* have almost no material to one edge) and more importantly, IMO, whether or not they stay in place as an offset bushing is going to want to move due to unequal pressure with the offcenter bore, and the more offset the more it's going to want to move. Hobzee said he'd used them in some serious competition stuff with no issues, for whatever that is worth. He did say that caster plates would allow better flex due to the use of stock rubber bushings, which is of course the case as poly doesn't deflect as well as rubber.

At 5 degrees I'm probably looking for a different solution, but then that's the cut between a 2.5" - 3" lift and a 4" lift...the former you can usually get away with just springs and shocks and stock arms, and the latter you are probably into full kit mode. I think that there's been a pretty clear lesson learned here that if you are going to do it you'd ought to pony up for the full kit and not mix and match, and then don't change your kit unless you want to do it all over again.

An adjustable arm for fine tuning caster/driveline angle is what we need. All of these fixed solutions are fundamentally problematic except for the knuckle turn...but even then you'd better not change your lift much. I'm not saying this is easy given the stock arm position, but it is amazing coming from a world where there is almost no such thing as a fixed arm (Jeeps) and you can fine tune your setup as you go to a world where you have to hope for a perfect match for your rig or you are halfway to S.O.L.

The company that makes these caster threads a thing of the past is going to make some good money, because adjustable arms are the foundation of a mix and match market where you can build the suspension that best suits your needs. As we get more sophisticated and more conscious of what functions well and what does not the fixed arm has to face obsolesence or this aftermarket will never substantially expand beyond the fairly simple question of "how much lift do I want?" which today is largely a function of "how much money do I have to spend?". I'd sure like to see those questions be "How much tire do I need to run the trails I want, and how do I engineer the best suspension with the least expense and complications for those tires with readily available parts that I can customize for my usage?"

Anyway, 5* is out there for those who mall crawl and expedition more, and flex less...I'm just reporting potential sourcing options...

Nay
 
Working with the arms we have takes some thought and planning. I designed a plate that allowed me to tune the amount of rotation to my caster and driveline needs. Easy enough if you understand the logistics of what you are doing and the truck's needs. However people want a bolt on solution with limitless adjustment so they don't have to take the time to understand the logistics and just adjust their worries away.

For that I think a fundamental design change would be needed to the front axle.
 
landtank said:
However people want a bolt on solution with limitless adjustment so they don't have to take the time to understand the logistics and just adjust their worries away

Well of course we do :D . That's the essential difference between DIY and paying for an engineered and tested solution that I can then adapt to my requirements.

This is the middle ground between being able to safely engineer a totally custom solution and buying an out of the box fixed bolt-on solution, both of which I find to be inherently risky from a financial perspective as the former could be a total bomb and a safety risk, and the latter is going to show its inherent compromises sooner as opposed to later (for me, anyway).

The 80 may well lack that middle ground. I am extremely wary of opening the door to potential problems that cost a lot of money just to bring you back to square one. Caster v. Pinion in many ways is a baseline issue. Unless you rotate the knuckles, there is no way to disconnect the relationship set from the factory, and pinion angle has to take precedence over caster...in other words, caster is an effect, not a primary adjustment. Nobody should really be talking about adjusting caster...the issue is having an adjustable pinion angle and choosing the best driveshaft to create an acceptable caster measurement.

Nay
 
Speaking of home made caster correction, here's something that I'm using. This is an extenstion of the "washer" method and allows you to set your own caster as you lift your vehicle higher. All of the parts are from Home Depot and requires no welding but as usual, you'll need to notch the front radius arm holes - per the "washer" method.

Basically, I'm using the top bolts as pinch bolts to prevent the radius arm from moving/slipping. I'm using 850Js with 0.75" spacers and I'm able to adjust the caster angle from 2* to 6*. My main lilmitation is the rear tie rod/control arm rubbage. Of course, the front springs will bow depending on how much positive caster you're after!

For more caster, simply loosen the top bolts and use a pry bar to rotate the axle as needed! Nothing complicated but works none the less. I've been using this correction method for about 1.5 years w/o any issues. Currently, the caster is at 2.5* with the 850J/863 springs. There is roughly about 3/8" of gap in the tie rod/control arm area.

Cheers,

Ali
caster plates.webp
caster plate with caption.webp
 
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Nay said:
. Nobody should really be talking about adjusting caster...the issue is having an adjustable pinion angle and choosing the best driveshaft to create an acceptable caster measurement.

Nay

I always looked at it from the reverse standpoint. Set the caster correct, so that the vehicle drives straight and safe. Then work out the driveline issues. Even the cut and turn, though you're rotating the knuckels, I have always thought of it as setting the caster, then correcting the drive angle.

In truth, does it really matter which you put first on your list, they both have to work. A good pinion angle with caster so bad you can't go in a straight line isn't going to do you any good. A caster that is perfect, that you can't drive due to driveshaft vibration, doesn't do you any good either.

Cut and turn certainly allows setting both to optimum. Personally, if I was going to go through the trouble/ expense of a cut and turn, I'd dial in the caster a little high, so that I could lift higher later and not have to worry about re-cutting. I mean the only downside to having a little extra caster is slower turn in and maybe a little tire wear. I'm driving a tank to begin with, what do I care if turn in is a little slower!

Where we sit today, most put priority on the caster, and take care of the vibrations with a DC driveshaft. That's not the worst thing in the world. Safer, though more costly than setting the pinion angle and then getting whatever you get for caster.
 
Ali, no slippage of the channel? did you use some adhesive too?
 
Walking Eagle said:
Where we sit today, most put priority on the caster, and take care of the vibrations with a DC driveshaft. That's not the worst thing in the world. Safer, though more costly than setting the pinion angle and then getting whatever you get for caster.

That only works within a certain range, though. You still have to adjust pinion angle for the DC shaft, and then caster is what it is. And you make an interesting point about tire wear. I've found that some people talk about wearing out certain tires very quickly and others seem to get 30K of good useful life out of them. I wonder if ending up @ 7* on a radius arm suspension has anything to do with this? That is really high for the specs I've ever seen for a radius arm application. Did we need to go this high, or is that the result of using a DC shaft on a lifted 80 application with a properly set pinion, and are there consequences? I certainly wouldn't shoot for 5* over the stock measurements if I was cutting the knuckles.

Nonetheless, going DC simply alters the position of the pinion...it doesn't solve vibrations...you solve vibrations by having proper angles, and your fixed arms have to create a near zero axle pinion angle or a DC will vibrate (they are less tolerant of angles being off than standard u-joint shafts).

A standard u-joint shaft actually has a theoretically higher operating limit (it will not bind against the housing as soon), although the DC will show better joint life because only the t-case end has any angle, and that angle is split between two joints. Anything over a 3 degree operating angle on a u-joint begins to dramatically shorten its life, because it is now moving in a greater elliptical arc as opposed to the circular motion of a 0* operation.

That's why if you have a taller lift a DC shaft is desirable independent of caster. If you can make caster a side benefit then all the better. But back to my point...if you want to mix and match and create a hybrid suspension using fixed arms (or your truck is simply one of those anomolies where the stock measurements were out of spec) there is no guarantee you won't end up somewhere between where the stock shaft and DC operate smoothly, and then you are stuck with the reality that pinion angle comes first in front end alignment, and you have really expensive control arms that can't do a thing for you.

Nay
 
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Nay said:
Nonetheless, going DC simply alters the position of the pinion...it doesn't solve vibrations...you solve vibrations by having proper angles, and your fixed arms have to create a near zero axle pinion angle or a DC will vibrate (they are less tolerant of angles being off than standard u-joint shafts).

Nay
It has always made me scratch my head because the radius arm front suspension is **perfectly suited** for a DC front shaft. With the frame mounts near the front TC output yoke, and the pinion angle set to point right at the TC yoke, the angle on the lower joint in a DC setup would remain near 0* through the whole range of motion of the front axle. Why Toyota decided to go with their touchy out of phase drive shaft and arbitrary pinion angle I will never know.

Ford figured all of this out 40 years ago... 6" of lift & 3 degrees of castor correction, and you are still within the specs for both pinion angle and positive castor with no vibration.
 
I have 4" of lift and it needed 7* of correction for both the dc shaft angle and caster to fall into correct parameters. I can actually go another 1" higher and still be within spec but caster will be at the minimum.

Personally, when exceediing 3" of lift, focussing on caster alone initially and then dealing with the vibrations later is asking for a world of hurt. Install the springs, adjust the panhards and then take some readings.
 
Nay said:
But back to my point...if you want to mix and match and create a hybrid suspension using fixed arms (or your truck is simply one of those anomolies where the stock measurements were out of spec) there is no guarantee you won't end up somewhere between where the stock shaft and DC operate smoothly, and then you are stuck with the reality that pinion angle comes first in front end alignment, and you have really expensive control arms that can't do a thing for you.

Nay


So you are saying I should go to the 6" lift huh? :D


I see all the points you are saying....I'm HOPING and praying to the Cruiser Gods that the arms will kill two birds with one stone....If i can get no vibes and good caster then I will be ecstatic!

If not I'll have to figure out the best way to go to fix it or get it "acceptable"
 
I am running the 4" springs with BOTH the OME bushigs and Slee Plates, brought me to ~3* caster had the stock shafts rebuilt and have no vibes. Note: you will have to grind the arms a bit to fully clear.
 
Put the arms on yesterday. Pretty easy, about an hour didn't take off the wheels or use the floor jack...:D that might have made it easier.

Have only taken her up to 40~50 at this point. No vibes other than the tires rumbling. The dartiness is completely gone at this point. Dumping on the brakes no longer puts hers all over. I'll try to get a highway trip today at lunch and a caster sweep later this week.

damn they are beefy!
 
FJBen said:
Put the arms on yesterday. .. Dumping on the brakes no longer puts hers all over. I'll try to get a highway trip today at lunch and a caster sweep later this week.

damn they are beefy!


Good show Ben!

I can relate to the absence of 'dartiness' .. I slammed on the brakes on my way back from Co .. hwy+ speed .. on cruise .. half asleep .. bambi .. full panic stop!! .. not an inch lateral slide! Just crunched down straight as an arrow thankfully, long enough for bambi to poop his drawers and myself to skirt around his hesitation.

And they are beefy .. pics don't do them justice imho.

:beer: :beer:


TY
 
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