Landtank MAF surprising scangauge results

[turbocruiser]

I have said my piece and have not posted anything in this last round that Scott started. Please do not put me and him in the same boat.

You and him are not even in the same ocean, same planet, same universe! Everyone without exception knows that.

FWIW Christo, I always thought that you were always rather respectful about all your points regarding referencing the FPR ... you shared your thesis ... then you posted your data which was thoroughly well thought out ... then you proved your point regarding referencing the FPR. I sincerely appreciated all that.

I also sincerely appreciated all the thoughts you shared specific to what the ECU is doing ... you very honestly stated very simply that we don't know what it is working on datawise ... you did not doomsday the thing ... nor did you deify the thing ... you simply stated that we don't know.

And I also sincerely appreciate you helping me with my desire to install the LT MAF, all the advice you generously gave about what to watch for, what to do and what not to do etc. and then the follow through with whatever came up throughout the testing that we did. I couldn't have asked for anything more.

In general you don't try to baffle with bull****, you've never ever claimed expert status to prove your points (and yet you are unquestionably one of the top say three really expert experts here), you've always given people their points (even when they have only one right out of ten others off) and yet prove your points pretty politely and all while completely contributing to the truly awesome community around LC's not just with your "you" but with a really wide range of absolutely awesome products and services. If Sumo could truthfully claim even one of those things he'd have improved immensely, unfortunately he can't, well at least as long as that "truthfully" part is important.


to you sir, sincerely.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Landtank, I read the Vendor MAF-contextual comments on being "bullied" with some belated amusement. I freely admit, and can document easily, that I fully, completely, and repeatedly bullied Romer (PM) and Turbocruiser (PM/email), over the FPR reference line disconnect with the LTMAF mod, back in August of '07.

I still have those privates, they are brutal, and quite clearly opin my thoughts on anyone that disconnects a FPR manifold reference signal. The bullying didn't work back then, but change happened based on Christo's pictures and tests (I guess). Me, I could care less who/what caused them to do it, and am glad for you and them, that in the prior 19months, nothing blew up. As a rule, I take a dislike to engines blowing up because of ignorance. That's not personal.

None of this information on MAF operation is new to me, and prior to you selling 'small batches' (150+?) of these modified MAF's, I attempted to voice my concerns over this mod. I was deleted, banned from threads, and chastised by both moderators on this very list.

Here, I only see major mis-understandings of MAF operation by many respected tech contributors, one of whom is also a vendor of them. I don't differentiate the presentations, other than my knowledge-expectation of the vendor selling a 'mod' on that board, is much higher than a contributor that doesn't.

Cheers

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[landtank]

I read the MAF-contextual comments on being "bullied" with some belated amusement. I freely admit, and can document easily, that I fully, completely, and repeatedly bullied Romer (PM) and Turbocruiser (PM/email), over the FPR reference line disconnect with the LTMAF mod, back in August of '07.

I still have those privates, they are brutal, and quite clearly opin my thoughts on anyone that disconnects a FPR manifold reference signal. The bullying didn't work back then, but change happened based on Christo's pictures and tests (I guess). Me, I could care less who/what caused them to do it, and am glad for you and them, that in the prior 19months, nothing blew up. As a rule, I take a dislike to engines blowing up because of ignorance. That's not personal.

None of this information on MAF operation is new to me, and prior to you selling 'small batches' (150+?) of these modified MAF's, I attempted to voice my concerns over this mod. I was deleted, banned from threads, and chastised by both moderators on this very list.

Here, I only see major mis-understandings of MAF operation by many respected tech contributors, one of whom is also a vendor. I don't differentiate the presentations, other than my knowledge-expectation of the vendor selling a 'mod' on that board, is much higher than a contributor that doesn't.

Cheers

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

Listen you raging idiot. Go back and read what I wrote. Being bullied was in respect to be forced into a classification as a vendor.

 

[turbocruiser]

I read the MAF-contextual comments on being "bullied" with some belated amusement. I freely admit, and can document easily, that I fully, completely, and repeatedly bullied Romer (PM) and Turbocruiser (PM/email), over the FPR reference line disconnect with the LTMAF mod, back in August of '07.

I still have those privates, they are brutal, ...
Cheers

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

For the record I really honestly thought that those PMs were really rather respectful all around , not brutal at least as far as my attempts at things were taken, so, again.

To anyone who actually cares, more or less, I actually had a helluva good time talking to Scott that way; the fodder was fun, the ideas were interesting and the persona was, well, more personable. He's probably huge fun to buy a beer for, and talk together in person. Hell with a bunch of beers in him he might actually lose his highest inhibitions and actually admit he's wrong half the time!

In all seriousness I know for a fact that he takes himself much less seriously than you'd think. So he's only half the ass he seems so often. Stated with some fondness Scott so don't f'n start with me mang!

 

[SUMOTOY]

Listen you raging idiot. Go back and read what I wrote. Being bullied was in respect to be forced into a classification as a vendor.

I read claims of "bullying"from a MAF housing Vendor and posted to that point. With all due respect, over $30,000 on this board in MAF sensor housing sales alone , do you really want to claim you are *not* a Vendor? Rick, by definition you are a Vendor without any "bullying" whatsoever. Your 'intention' or declaration, does not change the contention. Even if it was 15 "small runs" of 10 units; wholesale or retail.

In contrast, in my 4 years on this board, I sold a friend's truck here once as a favor, in the classifieds. Full disclosure, I'll admit he did buy me a nice dinner. I might also suggest that as a Vendor, you could find yourself often held to a higher standard, in many respects.

Food for thought, from your so-ascribed "raging idiot"

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[Walking Eagle]

If Landtank is a vendor, then Slee has no right to be asking any of the questions he is, at least not in my mind. I wish vendors would just keep out of other vendor's threads, I see it as unprofessional. State your product advantages on threads about your products. Answer questions directed toward you. Picking appart other vendor's stuff on a forum like this is unseemly at best. If I was a vendor on this forum, I'd be happy to answer anybodies question except for another vendors. I mean, why on God's green earth would I supply another vendor with free information? Guess that's just my idea of fair - not necessarily everyone elses - though most advertisers agree, since they will only talk about how they are better than the the comepetion because of x y and z, and only refur to the competition as such, rather than by name - autos being the big exception.

 

[SUMOTOY]

If Landtank is a vendor, then Slee has no right to be asking any of the questions he is, at least not in my mind. I wish vendors would just keep out of other vendor's threads, I see it as unprofessional. State your product advantages on threads about your products. Answer questions directed toward you. Picking appart other vendor's stuff on a forum like this is unseemly at best. If I was a vendor on this forum, I'd be happy to answer anybodies question except for another vendors. I mean, why on God's green earth would I supply another vendor with free information? Guess that's just my idea of fair - not necessarily everyone elses - though most advertisers agree, since they will only talk about how they are better than the the comepetion because of x y and z, and only refur to the competition as such, rather than by name - autos being the big exception.

Good points. However, answering technical questions on a tech list doesn't have to give away the store, btdt for years on another forum. In the case of the LTMAF mod, Christo could make a MAF sensor tube if he wanted, that's not what he questioned in the thread. Nor did he ask for the drawings or programming from the CNC machine. Nor do I read any desire by him to do a MAF housing in the last 2 years. He asked specifically how to deal with a technical issue regarding a problem encountered to help his customer enjoy a mod - free of risk.

That same respected Toyota Tech found flaws in the design theory, application and understanding. And IMO Christo, *as a vendor*, behaved him self quite professionally through the personal battering Christo took doing it. Had Landtank understood he too was a Vendor, the exchange might have been not only more professional both ways, the information train would have been shorter.

Heath, Christo posts up a lot of technical information on his own website available to anyone. So do thousands of other Vendors, Mud and otherwise. In the case of MAF voltage slopes, that tech information seems part and partial to the mod itself. I personally find it incredulous that anyone, vendor or otherwise, could build or sell 150 MAF housings without voltage slopes available to himself or anyone that asks for them.

Had someone pointed out to LT that he was a Vendor early-on, the right thing to do as a Vendor, might be more obvious.

My .02 (edit to your point below: My .02 triangularly arbitraged thru the peso to correct for net 'worth')

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[Walking Eagle]

scott - your .02 isn't worth that much.

 

[sleeoffroad]

If Landtank is a vendor, then Slee has no right to be asking any of the questions he is, at least not in my mind. I wish vendors would just keep out of other vendor's threads, I see it as unprofessional.

With all due respect this was not a vendor thread, but a member of the board. I asked questions based on the mod and I too felt that Rick could supply the relevant data without giving away the farm. I do agree with you that in the vendor section, one stays out of other vendor threads, but in tech, I feel that one should have the freedom to ask questions.

State your product advantages on threads about your products. Answer questions directed toward you.

That is what the vendor section is about, but since Rick does not see himself as a vendor, he does not post there. Only in the merchandise section, which is kinda gray area. But even there I stay out of it.

Picking appart other vendor's stuff on a forum like this is unseemly at best. If I was a vendor on this forum, I'd be happy to answer anybodies question except for another vendors. I mean, why on God's green earth would I supply another vendor with free information?

The information is relevant to the mod and should be something that the vendor/hobbyist have if this is the mod he is selling.

Guess that's just my idea of fair - not necessarily everyone elses - though most advertisers agree, since they will only talk about how they are better than the the comepetion because of x y and z, and only refur to the competition as such, rather than by name - autos being the big exception.

If someone ask me for the drawings of our control arms, I would not give them. Obviously, but would you also be happy if someone asks me what caster they correct for and I say, sorry never measured it so I do not have it, but hey, believe me it works. It is on 100's of trucks and all is good.

 

[Walking Eagle]

With all due respect this was not a vendor thread, but a member of the board. I asked questions based on the mod and I too felt that Rick could supply the relevant data without giving away the farm. I do agree with you that in the vendor section, one stays out of other vendor threads, but in tech, I feel that one should have the freedom to ask questions.

With all due respect, I feel differently. Notice I didn't ask mods to remove anything, nor did I attack you. I only stated what was in 'my mind' and how "I see" it. Didn't expect you to agree.

That is what the vendor section is about, but since Rick does not see himself as a vendor, he does not post there. Only in the merchandise section, which is kinda gray area. But even there I stay out of it.

I started out with "If he's a vendor", since that seems to be up for debate.

The information is relevant to the mod and should be something that the vendor/hobbyist have if this is the mod he is selling.

I feel it's not your place as a vendor to ask such things. You feel differently. I see a pattern of you trying to run other's products down. I'm sure you'll say it's "Just tech". We're not going to agree - so I'm fine with not agreeing on this issue.

If someone ask me for the drawings of our control arms, I would not give them. Obviously, but would you also be happy if someone asks me what caster they correct for and I say, sorry never measured it so I do not have it, but hey, believe me it works. It is on 100's of trucks and all is good.

If I ask a vendor, as a buying customer, yes, I would expect a solid answer. Are you a buying customer of Landtank's MAF? That, to me, is the difference. I actually thought some of your questions with other vendors (who are definitely in the business) or statements, specifically those made out of ignorance that could have been removed by visiting said vendors site, to be more inapropriate than here. But hey - it's only my opinion on what is good behavior and what isn't. Some are going to agree with me, some aren't. You're in the 'aren't' category. I'm o.k. with that.

On the flip side - you've also provided me with some good information for technical discussions - like when I was looking at the different Castor correction options and the effects of each, you provided me with some arm length information that really helped put some real #'s in the discussion.

We differ in opinion on what is appropriate. Like I said, I'm fine with that.

 

[sleeoffroad]

If I ask a vendor, as a buying customer, yes, I would expect a solid answer. Are you a buying customer of Landtank's MAF? That, to me, is the difference.

So what do I do when I have a customer come in that asks us to install a supercharger, has the LT MAF installed and ask my opinion on it and if it is OK to run with the fuel pressure hose disconnected? So I did not buy one, but we have a few customers that do. How do you handle that situation? Since LT is not a vendor and have a tech line, this is the avenue that we can get information.

 

[dwrtoy]

I agree, and think this sums up concerns of scott, christo, and many others that may care...quite well.

Heck, If I purchase a turbocharger, I want to see the compressor map, reguardless of the fact that the majority of the population may not able to understand what they are looking at. This thread has fizzled out...

With all due respect this was not a vendor thread, but a member of the board. I asked questions based on the mod and I too felt that Rick could supply the relevant data without giving away the farm. I do agree with you that in the vendor section, one stays out of other vendor threads, but in tech, I feel that one should have the freedom to ask questions.



That is what the vendor section is about, but since Rick does not see himself as a vendor, he does not post there. Only in the merchandise section, which is kinda gray area. But even there I stay out of it.



The information is relevant to the mod and should be something that the vendor/hobbyist have if this is the mod he is selling.



If someone ask me for the drawings of our control arms, I would not give them. Obviously, but would you also be happy if someone asks me what caster they correct for and I say, sorry never measured it so I do not have it, but hey, believe me it works. It is on 100's of trucks and all is good.

 

[Grench]

I'm hesitant to insert myself back into this one, but what the heck.

To my understanding, Christo was providing services to one of his customers who had installed a product made by LT - and was getting readings that were not making sense. So, he asked questions on behalf of his customer - who is also a LT customer - to try to get some numbers around how the item in question (LTMAF) should operate.

The underlying questions are reasonable. The direction this thread took was not. Way too much time is being spent on personal attacks - resulting in legitimate questions and reasoning to be interpreted as more personal attacks.

I don't see a lot of hope in this thread returning to a legitimate technical discussion. It's too bad. LT has a pretty cool idea with his MAF. Slee has legitimate questions in how to properly perform diagnostics to ensure it is working properly.

I don't see the main question as one vendor attacking another. It is a mechanic performing service work encountering someone else's modified part and needing more information about how to make sure it is working properly.

If it were a someone's non-mud-member mechanic posting up the numbers and asking the questions about how to deal with this truck he was asked to work on - would the response have been different?

Should the conversation have happened in a phone call instead of a public forum? Possibly. But then we would have all been deprived of the underlying tech sharing that we claim to crave.

I see the LTMAF as essentially a bleeding edge part - kind of like being in the first round of public release for a new medication. It takes time and feedback to find out if there are side effects and whether they are acceptable or not given the improvement from the original state.

The LTMAF is still a real cool idea. Those of us who bought one knew going into it that this was a low volume, hey check this out, item. I have one sitting on the shelf and am very curious about the results of the tech side of this thread.

A possible side effect (lean condition) has been found. Is the side effect limited to the single unit in question, or is it across all cases? If proven to be wide spread, what is required to reduce or eliminate the side effect without destroying the positive effect?

Those questions will probably remain while everyone argues in circles about who knows what about which signal on what platform's EFI and what the proper etiquette is for asking questions and collecting knowledge about a modification.

So, back to the flame wars - since, again, I don't see a lot of hope for this thread.

 

[Walking Eagle]

So what do I do when I have a customer come in that asks us to install a supercharger, has the LT MAF installed and ask my opinion on it and if it is OK to run with the fuel pressure hose disconnected? So I did not buy one, but we have a few customers that do. How do you handle that situation? Since LT is not a vendor and have a tech line, this is the avenue that we can get information.

If a customer comes in and asks your opinion - give it to them.

If LT is not a vendor (again, that is debatable) - then you would do it like any other customer mod that is not from a vendor. If a customer comes in and asks you to install a supercharger on a truck that has the EGR valve disabled, what do you do? There is no tech. line for that. Of course, if I'm paying someone to install a supercharger on my truck, I'd expect them to know the answer.

This is not 'the' avenue to get information - it's one. But if you need information from LT on this for a customer of yours, you could also just PM LT.

My guess is that if this really did come up, you'd tell the customer that if they choose to run with LT MAF and the fuel pressure hose disconnected, you'd tell them that you'd install the supercharger for them, but you would take no responsibility for it working with the LT MAF. I'm guessing that is the same answer you give if someone has a LT castor correction, or MAF drop brackets and they call asking if your DC shaft will get rid of the vibration they have.

 

[sleeoffroad]

This is not 'the' avenue to get information - it's one. But if you need information from LT on this for a customer of yours, you could also just PM LT.

I doubt a PM to LT would have resolved the issue. There was also other technical issues re: fuel pressure testing that was made that I felt I had to address in the thread. I am not sure if you went back and found that in the thread or looked at that.

FWIW, I started a separate thread on that.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-...-vs-intake-manifold-pressure-here-skinny.html

My guess is that if this really did come up, you'd tell the customer that if they choose to run with LT MAF and the fuel pressure hose disconnected, you'd tell them that you'd install the supercharger for them, but you would take no responsibility for it working with the LT MAF.

That is exactly what we did. The customer, who is also a Mud member can post to verify if he chooses to do so.

I guess we will leave it at that, and agree to disagree.

 

[Walking Eagle]

That is exactly what we did. The customer, who is also a Mud member can post to verify if he chooses to do so.

I guess we will leave it at that, and agree to disagree.

Actually, that's one we can agree on. Banks isn't going to guarantee their turbo is going to work properly with a Bullydog engine management computer, and a home brew propane injection system right? Wouldn't expect any vendor to guarantee their stuff will work with another vendor's stuff, or any home brew stuff.

 

[Ebag333]

My guess is that if this really did come up, you'd tell the customer that if they choose to run with LT MAF and the fuel pressure hose disconnected, you'd tell them that you'd install the supercharger for them, but you would take no responsibility for it working with the LT MAF. I'm guessing that is the same answer you give if someone has a LT castor correction, or MAF drop brackets and they call asking if your DC shaft will get rid of the vibration they have.

It's a shame when a business goes above and beyond the call of duty to help a customer and gets reamed for it.

Slee could have done exactly what you're suggesting, and perhaps that's what we've come to expect of modern American companies. Instead he spent his own time trying to find answers for his customer.

I've had both experiences. I can tell you which one I'd prefer.



Christo: you keep doing what you're doing. You might catch some crap for it, but any customers who you support in this manner will appreciate it. This is the way to make customers for life. I still recommend people to a local mechanic who did something similar for my folks over 10 years ago, and I guarantee you that I will recommend people to you.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Actually, that's one we can agree on. Banks isn't going to guarantee their turbo is going to work properly with a Bullydog engine management computer, and a home brew propane injection system right? Wouldn't expect any vendor to guarantee their stuff will work with another vendor's stuff, or any home brew stuff.

Problem. Folks that don't know MAF sensor from a Air Flilter housing, or the dangers of a RRFPR disconnect, pay to have someone know these systems intimately. Here is where it gets kinda grey, and potentially ugly. With a Vendor, there are rights and responsibilites that come with a product. Here, with a self proclaimed 'hobbyist', the risk is fully assumed by the buyer.

Then back to a tech forum... If a Vendor sells 150 MAF units, and subsequently demonstrates many misunderstandings of the device he designed and sold, what do you have left? In the end: All that remains is Risk.

Christo should not have to assume that risk, nor should 150 buyers hyped up on 'trusting' a guy is doing the right thing. Add in the other toys a hobbyist sells... It sure seems to me there are several Vendors and Sponsors that would be thankful to have tens of thousands of dollars fly under the accountability radar.

This really is a Forum Policy issue, IMO. It should be quite clear what the criteria is to move one from 'Merchandiser' to 'Vendor'. I personally sent out dozens of MUD PM's over the last couple years with the opinion that anyone that disables a RRFPR is not well versed on EFI operation (that's the cleaned up version).

More .02 arbitraged thru the now rising peso

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[firetruck41]

Problem. Folks that don't know MAF sensor from a Air Flilter housing, or the dangers of a RRFPR disconnect, pay to have someone know these systems intimately. Here is where it gets kinda grey, and potentially ugly. With a Vendor, there are rights and responsibilites that come with a product. Here, with a self proclaimed 'hobbyist', the risk is fully assumed by the buyer.

Then back to a tech forum... If a Vendor sells 150 MAF units, and subsequently demonstrates many misunderstandings of the device he designed and sold, what do you have left? In the end: All that remains is Risk.

Christo should not have to assume that risk, nor should 150 buyers hyped up on 'trusting' a guy is doing the right thing. Add in the other toys a hobbyist sells... It sure seems to me there are several Vendors and Sponsors that would be thankful to have tens of thousands of dollars fly under the accountability radar.

This really is a Forum Policy issue, IMO. It should be quite clear what the criteria is to move one from 'Merchandiser' to 'Vendor'. I personally sent out dozens of MUD PM's over the last couple years with the opinion that anyone that disables a RRFPR is not well versed on EFI operation (that's the cleaned up version).

More .02 arbitraged thru the now rising peso

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

Who gives a rip if someone is s hobbyist or a vendor? They owe you nothing, and the title holds no meaning in regards to liability. If you don't want a part a vendor, reseller, or hobbyist is selling, then don't buy it. If you don't trust them, then definitely don't buy from them. Slee holds no responsibility for LTs parts, any more than he is responsible for a customer using a Wix filter instead of OEM.

The criteria to move from "merchandise" to "vendor" in the forum is quite clear: pay for the vendor star, and you get to post in the vendor section, you get a banner, and you get a few perks on the forum. If you don't want to pony up the $$$, then Woody has graciously provided the "merchandise" section, where there are everything from hobbyist to full fledged businesses that post.

Woody has a clear "forum policy", if you are an imbecile and can not figure it out, it is your problem, not the forum's.

 

[Walking Eagle]

It's a shame when a business goes above and beyond the call of duty to help a customer and gets reamed for it.

Slee could have done exactly what you're suggesting, and perhaps that's what we've come to expect of modern American companies. Instead he spent his own time trying to find answers for his customer.

Humm... Slee did do exactly what I guessed he did. So there is no "Slee could have done", only Slee DID.

My guess is that if this really did come up, you'd tell the customer that if they choose to run with LT MAF and the fuel pressure hose disconnected, you'd tell them that you'd install the supercharger for them, but you would take no responsibility for it working with the LT MAF.

That is exactly what we did. The customer, who is also a Mud member can post to verify if he chooses to do so. .

So I'm not exactly sure what you're upset about with what I've said there. I guessed what he was likely to do, and that is exactly what he did. It's unfortunate that I was able to see through any misdirection?

I certainly did not 'ream' Slee. Simply stated that in my opinion the way he posts to threads about other vendors stuff is distasteful. It's an opinion - take it for what you want. Or you can dig up old threads where he's done the same thing - in one thread he even made statements about a competator not including something in their kits, I believe it was bumpstops, where as not only did that vendor supply bumpstop spacers, these parts were listed in the kit - which 10 second of research would have yeilded, but that research didn't help him diss the competition. It's habitual, I'm not the only one who's seen it. He can say "it's just tech." and some people may agree. I say it's inappropriate. That's just an opinion, it happens to be an opinion by others who are afraid to post it for fear of retribution. I think it's a shame when a new vendor comes with something new they get attacked by other vendors.

BTW - never said he should not make the extra effort to find out the answer - just that doing it here isn't the right place. Not to mention is wasn't until way into the thread that Slee revealed he had a customer with the mod.