knuckle stud thread

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The main reason the RH side is more likely to come loose is because the RH steering arm is being pushed and pulled by both the drag link and the tie rod and is getting wiggled from the front and the back. My bet is the LH side comes loose on RHD trucks.

100% correct as usual. For others consider this on RHD trucks; 100% of the steering torque is transmitted through the right steering arm via the drag link and then transmits some torque to the left side. For those that have tried to steer with a wedged left tire and taco'd your tie rod you're fully aware of this. The steering system though anemic does create a lot of power and will bent and break parts easily. This is reason enough to install hydro-assist but that's another thread for another day.

red 271 locktite on mine. I chase the holes with a tap and isopropyl alcohol prior to install.

Rick, you hit the nail on the head with respect to preparation when using Loctite. If you don't keep everything grease free Loctite does no good.

The risk I see would be getting them out down the road but the only reason I would need to get them out IMO would be if one sheared off and at that point I've got bigger issues...

Throw a propane torch in your tool kit. A little heat will easily free Red and Blue Loctite. I Loctite the studs and the nuts and haven't any trouble in a quite a while.

I would be afraid to torque the studs into the knuckle to 50 foot pounds. Once you get into this range it feels like the base metal of the knuckle wants to give way. Toyota does not publish a torque spec for this that I have seen. I go more like 30. I did not used to believe in Locktite, since it would make a broken stud hard to remove. However, now I am convinced they break infrequently enough, that LockTite on balance is probably beneficial.

There is a cool mod where thicker and heavier D44 studs/cones are used. Has anyone done that in an 80?

Drew, good point on stud torque. I don't see a reason to go to 50 lbs but 25-30 lbs is enough to keep them well seated with red Loctite.

I read somewhere about the D44 studs but I've never persued it not having sheered the OEM or ARP studs yet. All the tooling needed would be a drill press, tap and tapered reamer for the cones. It's worth exploring.

What size and type tap is used (never used a tap before). What is the consensus on the torque spec for new studs?

12mmx1.5mm

25-30 ft/lbs with red loctite should be more than adequate
 
Anyone ever considered nylocks? Obviously wouldn't help the studs from backing out, but would keep the nuts from loosening...
 
Tim, did you see my question re: the accident that I posted on Rising Sun? If this is the truck that got sideswiped I would make sure that I check the stud holes. The force on the hit on the tire, can cause the steering arm to twist and elongate the holes. I mentioned this to Hugh as well when he called us.
 
I completely forgot about that Christo! Yes, that might help explain it as well...
 
Tim, did you see my question re: the accident that I posted on Rising Sun? If this is the truck that got sideswiped I would make sure that I check the stud holes. The force on the hit on the tire, can cause the steering arm to twist and elongate the holes. I mentioned this to Hugh as well when he called us.

Interesting thought. My wife crashed our truck and the right front took a solid hit, hard enough to take out the steering gear and pitman arm. That was in Dec-05 and the knuckle studs failed in Nov-06 or about 8 - 10K miles.
 
Anyone ever considered nylocks? Obviously wouldn't help the studs from backing out, but would keep the nuts from loosening...
Like you said - wouldn't help the studs.

But, if you could prevent the nuts from turning, in relation to the knuckle, it would make it extremely difficult to have studs back out or fall out. What about a locking plate under the nuts with ears to fold up on nut surfaces. You could have one large one for all four or two smaller ones. You would still torque the studs, but the need for locktite might be eliminated, not to mention having some peace of mind with your knuckle studs!
 
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Like you said - wouldn't help the studs.

But, if you could prevent the nuts from turning, in relation to the knuckle, it would make it extremely difficult to have studs back out or fall out.

Yeah, that was my thought. I'm just guessing, but I'd be willing to bet at least some of these failures are due to the nut loosening, and then the vibes/movement causing the stud to move.

Eliminate the nut from moving, and you reduce the chance of a gap forming between the nut and knuckle that would let the studs move.

A lock washer may also help I would think as it'd help apply pressure vertically to keep things from moving.


What about a locking plate under the nuts with ears to fold up on nut surfaces. You could have one large one for all four or two smaller ones. You would still torque the studs, but the need for locktite might be eliminated, not to mention having some peace of mind with your knuckle studs!.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I was thinking something right along the same lines as this. :hhmm:
 
.......I was thinking something right along the same lines as this. :hhmm:

Yeah, I was browsing through the FSM, because I remembered seeing something that might compare or even work. In the section on the front diff, they use 2 hole locking plates to secure the bolts that hold the ring gear to the diff case. Something like that might just work. Simple and reliable.
 
There are already lock washers between the cone washers and the nut on these studs FWIW.

This problem only seems to occur on trucks that have had the steering arm removed at some point in their past. I can't remember any examples where the studs/nuts loosened up on a factory-installed, never-serviced front end. That leads me (and possibly just me!) to believe that this problem could stem from imperfect reassembly of the knuckle and steering arm after servicing. They are a precision fit, so any dirt/grease etc that gets in during a servicing will affect the reassembly and possibly allow the steering arm to work loose, putting shear force (I think that's the one) on the knuckle studs and over time this loosens them up to the point where parts start falling off. Dirt or oil or other gunk on the knuckles/stud threads/steering arms/cone washers/nut threads will affect the fit during reassembly as well as the proper torque on the fasteners. That, coupled with the repetitive stresses and strains this area sees (steering inputs & bumps) and the load on the front axle leads to the eventual loosening of the steering arm/knuckle interface, and eventually it gets quite loose and parts can fall off.

My 2 cents.
 
My experience with this type of bolted connection came from our off road racing days. We used adhesives, lock wire, lock nuts, etc in attempts to keep fasteners from turning and what we found is the connection can and often does come loose without the hardware turning. This is because of fastener stretch or connection shift, failure. In my experience the connection fails first, starts shifting, then the fasteners start turning, so assembly to maximize the strength of the connection is the most productive preventive to failure.

I’m a big fan of loctite, have an 8.45oz bottle sitting on the bench that I use daily, but also believe it has it place and this isn’t it for two reasons. When the fasteners are glued together there is no way of confirming the clamp force of the connection, when retorqued, the wrench can click at the proper torque, but the fastener is loose. It can prevent metal to metal contact in fasteners, a prime example is if a fastener is assembled without load, like a stud. When a fastener is screwed into a hole it has play in all directions, if tightened into the hole the last thread on the stud and the first in the hole jam together, the rest of the threads are relatively centered with each other, when load is applied the stud will shift slightly towards the load, until all threads make contact. If there is adhesive, the treads are held slightly apart by it, when it fails the stud will shift and reduce the clamping force. Loctite connections must be loaded in their final configuration relatively immediately during assembly for maximum strength.

All hardware has specs, most important in this case is yield strength. When a fastener is torqued/loaded under yield it deforms/stretches in what is called elastic range, can be reused many times and will repeat the same clamping force. If torqued/loaded past yield it will suffer plastic deformation. Once this has happened the fastener will never hold it’s rated clamping force, will continue to stretch, loosen and must be replaced. IIRC the torque spec on the cone washer hardware is very close to yield, so it’s very important that they are properly torqued. Sometimes a plastic deformed fastener is easily detected with the torque wrench. When torqued a fastener should stay in place as the wrench load is removed, if the fastener moves, springs back, it often junk, seen most often on “discount tire torqued” wheel lugs. Any fastener that is bent is plastic deformed, any that have been pounded by running loose, maybe, so should be replaced.

This type of connection relies on solid metal to metal contact, if there is any rust, debris, burrs, etc, the parts wont make good contact. On the flat surfaces I use a wet stone or small file, slide it over the surface, the point is to look for/remove any burrs or high spots without changing the shape of the surface. The number one mistake that I see is paint, if the contact points are painted it will be squeezed out loosing the connection, paint after assembly.

I assemble with all moving, sliding parts (threads, washers, cone washers) lightly oiled, just a film. Torque the fasteners, then using a “soft” punch (brass, aluminum) put some pretty good whacks on the arm, then on each stud, trying to drive them in. I use a 40oz dead blow hammer and put some arm into it, enough to vibrate, settle the parts together without dents, damage, call this ringing the connection. Then retorque, if any of the fasteners move, ring and retorque again. Since I started ringing the fasteners, have had zero problems with them loosening, don’t use any adhesives and only install the studs snug. I use this method on all cone washer connections.

Put a few miles on the rig (~500) and recheck the torque, shouldn’t move. On a wheeling rig, some things should be torque checked, these are on my list along with most of the other suspension bolts, get checked a few times a year.
 
After waiting for over one week for the studs to arrive to the stealership, they sent the wrong ones (too short). I needed the truck running so I went and found me some heavy duty bolts as a test, as of today, they are holding up great!:cheers:
 
Tools R Us: During the front axle service how would you confirm that the knuckle studs are tight? If you found everything tight before you took the knuckle off for the axle service would you still remove the studs, clean/tap the threads, then reinstall and retorque, or just "ring" the studs and retorque them without removal??
 
My understanding is that the minute you unscrew the nuts, you compromise the studs' torque values and they should be either removed cleaned and re torqued, or just re torqued.
 
Tools R Us: During the front axle service how would you confirm that the knuckle studs are tight? If you found everything tight before you took the knuckle off for the axle service would you still remove the studs, clean/tap the threads, then reinstall and retorque, or just "ring" the studs and retorque them without removal??

If the nuts have no history of coming loose, the studs don't come out when disassembling and/or not replacing the studs, I leave them in place. If they are out, I double nut and snug in place, to "regular wrench tight." The only time that I use a tap/die on threads is if they are damaged so they don't screw together smoothly. Every time a tap/die is used on threads some metal is removed loosening/weakening the threaded connection.
 
So now this thread is making me doubt part of my front axle rebuild plan. I had originally intended to replace the old style studs with the new style Toyota ones given the numerous threads I had read regarding them loosening up (and how the new style are easier to torque down, and by extension easier to check I would imagine).

But now I'm wondering if I should even mess with swapping the studs, as none of them were loose when I took the knuckle off. Is it worth trying to set the new studs when the old ones seem to be seated properly?

Corey
 
...............CDan is the expert, but, the newer studs appear to be made of better material, at least to me, and Luke Porter recommends them above the ARP studs.

I would be afraid to torque the studs into the knuckle to 50 foot pounds. Once you get into this range it feels like the base metal of the knuckle wants to give way. Toyota does not publish a torque spec for this that I have seen. I go more like 30. .......
.........
Well not to :deadhorse: but more to to try and post something backed up by Toyota documentation in this thread. Re:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/229576-missing-bolts.html
You will find some words of wisdom by none other than cdan, in post#13.

Owing to the lack of a torque spec for the knuckle studs in the "Suspension and Axle" section, cdan mentions the "Standard Bolt Torque Specifications" chart, which is in the Introduction section of my '94 FSM. I have verified that my OEM knuckle studs are 6T class Stud bolts and the proper torque for the 6T 12 mm is 53 ft-lbf. The chart shows the end of the stud to be grooved for a 6T class, just like the end of my studs.

It's been thought by some in other posts that this torque is way high for this application. Well there you are - in black & white - in the FSM. The forces involved to loosen these studs are extreme, to say the least. IMHO, knowing the spec, I don't think that I would feel comfortable re-assembling the knuckles on a front end rebuild with out verifying the correct torque on all knuckle studs.
 
How long do you have to tighten down the nuts on the knuckle studs after you have used lock-tite on the studs? What class are the original studs on a 96 model, ditto for the replacement new style studs??
 
I just installed the new style studs using torx 12mm socket.
I put the knuckle in a vise, I used some Bostik anti-seize and torqued it to 50 lbs.
I torqued it three times. I started with 40, then 45 the 50.
At 40 lbs the studs screws in a visible way
At 45 lbs it moves very little.
And at 50 there is almost no movement.

I will be checking to see how it holds. The torx head shows no sign of give. So the concern is more what happens in the threads. If it comes loose, I will report back to this thread.
 
I just installed the new style studs using torx 12mm socket.
I put the knuckle in a vise, I used some Bostik anti-seize and torqued it to 50 lbs.
I torqued it three times. I started with 40, then 45 the 50.
At 40 lbs the studs screws in a visible way
At 45 lbs it moves very little.
And at 50 there is almost no movement.

I will be checking to see how it holds. The torx head shows no sign of give. So the concern is more what happens in the threads. If it comes loose, I will report back to this thread.

Did it feel like the stud was beginning to drive or auger through the top threads in the knuckle? I put new studs into the knuckles today too and stopped at around 30ish for fear of buggering up the leading threads in the knuckle.

Owing to the lack of a torque spec for the knuckle studs in the "Suspension and Axle" section, cdan mentions the "Standard Bolt Torque Specifications" chart, which is in the Introduction section of my '94 FSM. I have verified that my OEM knuckle studs are 6T class Stud bolts and the proper torque for the 6T 12 mm is 53 ft-lbf. The chart shows the end of the stud to be grooved for a 6T class, just like the end of my studs.

Just a point of clarification, the FSM lists 53 ft-lbs as the torque spec for 6T Hex head bolts (Studs were not listed). I spent a few hours searching for a torque spec for studs and not bolts and was unable to come up with anything. Also called a few of my engineer buddies but none of them were aware of any torque spec table for studs either. Closest we came was a torque spec for an unknown material/class 2 for 1/2 inch bolt was ~40ft/lbs. I had asked about this as the knuckle appears to be cast, however the 40ft/lbs was for a bolt and not a stud.

My thinking was that since there is a very limited shelf surface for the stud to bottom out on (unlike a flanged hex head bolt) that the torque spec would be lower. Lower torque would avoid the stud continuing to drive through the upper threads and auguring.

Fwiw,
Corey
 
Corey,
the studs did NOT continue to drive thru the knuckle. I was observing it very carefully. It just got firmly planted. 40 felt right, 45 felt very tight. 50 was about too much but it did not drove thru the cast which I think you refer to as auguring.

I have no idea if this is right or wrong. But I wanted to be on the upper side of tight. Maybe 45 is enough.
From what I saw, 40 will not be tight enough and certainly 30 felt like the studs was not seated all the way in. My threads were clean as I trace them with a tab, and the studs were new. I wanted the studded seated permanently and the anti-seize allows me to unbolt them 5 years later. At least this is the plan. Will have to see what happens.
 
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