How Important Is Dwell??

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Oct 26, 2006
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Pennsylvania 18350
Finally got the vacuum tuning straighted out, and she is now running great, but after reading destin's thread, I realized I left out the dwell adjustments (points gap, right?) in my settings:doh:. The dwell reading is at 28 on my combo RPM/Dwell/ Volt meter. I am out of OEM spec, but it is runninng well. Should I be concerned? Will it cause any damage? I did have to advance the timing to increase vacuum enough make it run without sputtering. RPM's are 650, steady vacuum is 18, and idle mixture screw is about four and a half turns out. Thanks for any info.:steer: Brendon
 
1.Dwell is the REAL measurement; point gap is only a handy reference.

2. As the dizzy gets older, and the shaft vibrates more, the stated point gap of the FSM bears less and less resemblance to what is required to achieve dwell.

3. In all likelihood, you will have to reduce gap well below factory spec to achieve proper dwell. This increases the likelihood that the points will burn prematurely. I had a customer some years ago whose dizzy was SO WORN that gap had to be reduced to .008 to achieve dwell. I told him I didn't think his points would last a week at that setting. They lasted two.:frown:

4. Dwell is preset and optimized in the Pertronix; this is one of the many reasons I like the product so much.

Best

Mark A.
 
I to have a points system. I am an engineer and cannot really understand how points have worked so well?? Dwell... is the time closed to time open in a circle.. The meter you use is based on voltage but as that cam spins around and opens/closes points it sees an average and relays that. Remember ...an average... Why do you think engineers moved forward to electronic?? Reason is no variables.. If your dwell is 18 it means average... Watch the meter ..It moves.. Why? Because points are on a shaft /cam that wears.
Points are a great museum item but I am going to DUI.
 
here is my take...

Dwell is an important measurement in the timing circuit of your engine. The goal is to get as much dwell (closed points) between spark plug discharges as possible. The longer the dwell time, the more charge built up in the coil and the stronger the subsequent spark. Unfortunately, with mechanical points systems, there is a physical limitation to how long the points can "dwell" closed and this is where the "gap" specification comes in. The ideal would be to have an infinitely small gap so when one of the points cam lobes bumped the moving point open, it would be an infinitesimally small opening, just long enough to collapse the magnetic field in the coil. And BAM, you get a bigger spark... or at least the biggest available spark...

In real life, that is an impossible goal with mechanical points. First, it is impossible to machine the parts with that precision. Even if you could machine to that precision, ANY wear or thermal expansion would destroy spacial the relationship of the parts. And this kind of wear happens rather quickly during engine use. Add to that the nasty tendency of all that inductive electrical load to arc across a small gap and you are left with needing to set the points with the equivalent of a grand canyon sized gap. Any sized gap isn't a good thing with respect to hot sparks, just a physical necessity.

That is why some high end mechanical distributors are fitted with dual points. The two sets of points are installed slightly out of phase so when one set opens with it's necessary big gap, the other set is still closed. When the second set finally opens with it's also large gap, the first set of points is just closing. Thus, this is a mechanical way to achieve the 'infinitely small' gap, longest possible dwell, the highest possible charge in the coil, and the hotest possible spark.

Electronic, points-less ignitions achieve the goal of infinitely small gap, maximum dwell by replacing the crude mechanical points with a transistor switch. Thus the "gap" is the size of an electron and opens and closes at the speed of electron flow. Add to that, unrestricted engine speed capability, since there are no mechanical parts to accelerate open and closed, ZERO maintenance, relatively low cost. So ask yourself, why would one even give a points system a second thought?

One last shot (thought)... I used to check the dwell all the time, until i stumbled upon a book, published back in the 40's, on achieving good intake vacuum under driving conditions. my first car, 68 Plymouth Baracuda, had a guage in the dash called a fuel efficiency gauge, and it had a few numbers on the guage face, 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25. In those years, i did not know that this was a simple vacuum guage so you could adjust your foot throttle to increase the vacuum to achieve better fuel economy. Simple carbureator function...

interestingly enough...

the same book had a section on adjusting the timing for better vacuum. what i discovered was an "art" of timing my engines. once I get my points close, I can move the timing a bit to a place where the vacuum in the intake is maximized during the four stroke proccess. in order to properly see this, you will need to learn to read the "carnot" or "engine cycle" maps. if you ever get a chance to talk to a race car engineer, ask them about the function of the "cam" verses "timing" and "spark."

later in life, during my military years, we opened the hood, and watched the vibrations of the edge of the hood as an indicator of the smoothness of the engine cycle map. all of this "art" work pays off if you change points every 3k miles, and get used to "seeing" the cycle of the engine work correctly.

another point... my dizzy, or distrubuter, has an external thumb screw/adjustment for advancing and retarding the timing for different octane fuel types, and also for elevation issues with fuel. i have found this a useful tool in adjusting the dwell with my oscilloscope, it's really more than the standard shop guy wants to do to his or her engine timing, but once you get "into" your engine, then these tools are like wide open windows from which to spend quality time with your fj40.

sweet, joyful, greasy, late into the night, fj time. just how sweet can i get this engine to run???
 
Question for Mark, no doubt the petronix is a nice upgrade. My 40 ran light years better when I put the unilite module in the Mallory distributor I'm running. But I thought you had some issue with the pre-set dwell parameters in a Petronix not jiving with the requirements and specs of a I-6 Cruiser engine. Has the new module cured some of this, or is it just good enough, and it is a blessing the points are gone?

For the original poster. If it is running well, I'd run it. I am concerned with you idle screw misture setting, seems a tad too many turns, but if it is smooth, then that is good.

Where do you have the timing set at? The BB on the flywheel is 7 BTDC, that is the stock setting. I'm running 11 BTDC on my 40. but I'm also at 6500 feet on average, gives good performance. I even bumped up the timing on my 60 series to that, made it run much better. Elevation does have an effect, should advance as you climb up generally. At least that has worked for me. I would say 7 is pretty good for sea level.
 
I was never able to achieve the factory dwell specs and have it run properly. I suspect that the dwell spec is wrong and I never bother measuring it any more.

The absolute dwell angle isn't that important on a 2F that isn't going to see more than 5,000 RPM very often. You only need enough dwell to saturate the coil (charge it up to its maximum) at its highest operating RPM and my experience is that 30 degrees is more than enough. This works out to about a .017 inch point gap.
 
Hey lets not dwell on this subject... hah... :hillbilly:
 
As always, I appreciate the information:). It is quite an education for a :banana: mechanic like me. Now I have to go back and reread everything and try to digest it all again....:steer:Brendon
 
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