Calling all Sparkys -Help! After Key on to Start, lights cut out, No power, No Crank, No Start. (1 Viewer)

[Joshman]

This one is a bugger, new battery month ago, and seems a bit different than the EFI fuse/fusebox "crank/ no start" issue - old battery was about 3 when it died - Big Interstate Group 31 AGM (little odd so short lived, but I live in the tropics and do low miles). Hopefully this is all some kind of dud battery issue - have to wait until Monday to go test it, but via my diagnosis unlikely.

Problem... After keying ignition on to start (normal door/dash lights all on etc. beforehand) all cabin power is lost, no crank, no start - only get open door alarm beep with key in first position. Jumping from secondary battery does nothing. Checked charge on battery 80% (via charger) with multimeter reading of 12.6v - left terminals unplugged and charged to 100% - reconnected and started - good for a week.

Week two (sits for a few days) - same happens, check battery charge 90% (via charger) 12.6v with multimeter. Remove terminals and, charge to 100% - starts up, good for a day, day two same issue.

3rd outage. While out, I read some voltages in fuse panel from fuses and relays and voltage was 7-9v on different spots (seems this could point to fuse box/panel or ground issue).

It seems to me maybe there is some type of safety breaker that may be kicking on once the starter tries to engage with bad voltage and only reset by the memory voltage going to zero for an extended period. I removed terminals and waited for vehicles voltage to drop to .01v and then touched positive and negative together, took about 3-5 minutes, read at 0v and reconnected terminals and it didn't start (seems it needs about 20-30 minutes so far to "forget"). Waited for about a half hour for it to drop to zero by itself and it started.

I'm not sure a bad battery could be the culprit with no change while jumping - but I will be taking it in for testing.
Battery is reading at 80% on charger on this third time of no power- between 12.6-12.7 on multimeter - it went to 13.1 (dropping off slowly as normal) after alternator put some charge on it (strange that it is at 80% again - but possibly bull**** "smart" charger reading??) I actually disconnected some accessory power feeds to winch and DC/DC charger to eliminate those as issues of draw dawn (only other non factory connection is stereo amp). I did notice my winch beeping after power outage which is strange as battery is reading 12.6V- so I'm not sure how that would see a break in power, it only does this when voltage battery drops down low (Pointing to faulty battery or bad connection at terminal). Maybe the cone of the battery post and terminal connection is different angles and it is only grabbing at top of post? Using auto terminals and quality military style terminals, so doubtful - but I do need to damn near close down 100% to get terminals to feel solid grab.

Starter makes some grind noise, I'm guessing as old battery was fading delivering slower starting, starter gear was also getting a bit mangled ( it's at about 150K - should be still a baby) but likely ready for a swap - new battery definitely turns it quicker and usually less of the noise, it still starts up every time (other than this new gremlin). Not sure if this could be a starter short robbing all power, or safety circuit ?

So far checked through all main panel fuses and fusible links, everything looks cherry - no corrosion or melting or burning - all copper contacts look clean . I have an extra fat ground installed to body and continuity at the block from the battery terminal. Once it happens again I would like to look at voltage on main fusible links.


The other part of this could be the fuse block/panel/box itself - I talked briefly with cruiser outfitters and they said there has been some posts on bad fuse blocks/panels causing issues like this - but so far haven't found the issue of no power to cabin at all, just no crank/no start situations - immobilizer not getting correct voltage/ohms issue - I tried swapping to 30Amp on EFI fuse - no difference.

Doesn't start in neutral.

Any help would be awesome, any pointing to ground location posts/ bad wiring that could do this/ ecu failures / safety switches- would be awesome or posts on loss of power

Thanks in advance. Josh

 

[jOnathN]

When you recharge the battery to 100% it starts and all is well for about a week?

If that’s the case I’d guess:
1) a weak battery again, possibly because of:
A) a failing alternator or voltage regulator that is not keeping it charged
B) high parasitic load that is draining the battery while it sits, combined with short trips that do not fully recharge the battery (or A)

 

[Joshman]

When you recharge the battery to 100% it starts and all is well for about a week?

If that’s the case I’d guess:
1) a weak battery again, possibly because of:
A) a failing alternator or voltage regulator that is not keeping it charged
B) high parasitic load that is draining the battery while it sits, combined with short trips that do not fully recharge the battery (or A)

It did start without charging the battery (just removing terminals for 30 minutes and happened after about 2 days). Getting 14.3 with alternator which is where it’s been at for 5+years. It sits a good amount of the time working from home. Usually does a longer 1-2 hour+ run once or twice a week. Charger brings it up 100% in under 30 minutes (so I’m not sure if the 80-90% charge is accurate from charger), but not ruling out a bad battery and hoping that is the answer.

 

[jOnathN]

Well, that is strange then. I’m out of ideas (not unusual for me ) at the moment

 

[Joshman]

Well, that is strange then. I’m out of ideas (not unusual for me ) at the moment

Thanks, btw battery tests fine via Interstate test.

 

[leveeguy]

AGM batteries require higher charging output than most alternators in 20-25 year old vehicles put out if not upgraded so over time the battery develops a memory from not charging to 100
%. When self charging this battery you should use a charger that is correct for AGM battery. There’s a diode swap that can be done to increase alternator output, if I remember correctly and There is a method to refresh AGM batteries that may work for you. Keep battery terminals clean with lightly grease posts. Hope this helps

Edit: I notice your alternator output at 14.3 which is actually on the higher side of the range.

 

[Joshman]

AGM batteries require higher charging output than most alternators in 20-25 year old vehicles put out if not upgraded so over time the battery develops a memory from not charging to 100
%. When self charging this battery you should use a charger that is correct for AGM battery. There’s a diode swap that can be done to increase alternator output, if I remember correctly and There is a method to refresh AGM batteries that may work for you. Keep battery terminals clean with lightly grease posts. Hope this helps

Battery is 1 month old and tested fine last one lasted about 3+ years, but maybe that’s why AGM setting is reading a little below 100%.

 

[leveeguy]

Battery is 1 month old and tested fine last one lasted about 3+ years, but maybe that’s why AGM setting is reading a little below 100%.

Ok new battery same symptoms. Investigating the fuse block as mentioned and visual inspection all wiring check for any codes with techstream if possible

 

[TxTchRR]

Having same issue, except seems to be related to rain. 1st time, hooked up a portable Jumpstart and fired right up, I don't think battery was the issue though. 2nd time I pulled EFI relay and cleaned contacts on my shirt, then plugged back in and car fired right up. First time clock was reset inside (car sat for about 5 hours that time and harder rain), second time it was not. Anyone have any ideas? Could it be the beginnings or an evolution of the EFI issue?

Previous owner had issues with this sporadically, but chalked it up to a parasitic loss he couldn't find. I have a gut feeling it's a ground or voltage issue related to rain entry or high humidity.

 

[2001LC]

Killing new batteries! They may be damage if not fully charged every time.

Assume a good alternator.

1) Oversized batteries, may not get the full charge they need. Either correct by using smaller battery (group 27F) or install over AMP charge device.

2) Oxidation on battery posts/clamps, inhibiting charge. I clean battery with baking soda/water (neutralize acid) then clean posts and clamps with abrasive (such as: sand paper or wire brushes) and use White lithium grease on post and clamps, to inhibit oxidation.

3) Install a battery trickle charger, if not a driven daily/weekly. Letting lead/acid battery sit they loose charge and will be damaged.

Check battery with volt meter. First with probes on post. Then on positive post and a ground, like bolt of first body ground is handy. Then check on positive clamp to body ground. Voltage should be the same from all points. Any drop from that of directly on both battery post, indicates connection issue. Which 9 out of 10 is between post and clamp. Then check that voltage is same through the vehicle. If a point found where it drops, it's like the ground to/nearest that point.

Note: Do not use that red stuff the comes in a spray can or brush-on to battery clamps/post. What that junk is for, is to signal when to clean post. But the stuff, if it gets between post and clamps, will inhibit the connection (voltage drop) just like oxidation.

Anytime any electrical condition present itself in presents of water (washing, rain snow, etc.). I Look first "has windshield been replaced", we see so many installed wrong (leak).

Check for parasitic draw. Number one in a stock LC or LX, is headrest or drop down DVD player (non are factory installed). These can be intermittent or continuous. We find pulling the continuous (key on or off) hot fuse (inline fuse) under glove box, takes care of issue. Which will also kill power to drop down DVD/headrest.

All of the external wire house blocks, may need inspecting. Starting with any circuit of concern. I've found some where water has passing the wire housing blocks seals and cause issue that change if wet or dry. In these the contact surface look dirty.

 

[Joshman]

Having same issue, except seems to be related to rain. 1st time, hooked up a portable Jumpstart and fired right up, I don't think battery was the issue though. 2nd time I pulled EFI relay and cleaned contacts on my shirt, then plugged back in and car fired right up. First time clock was reset inside (car sat for about 5 hours that time and harder rain), second time it was not. Anyone have any ideas? Could it be the beginnings or an evolution of the EFI issue?

Previous owner had issues with this sporadically, but chalked it up to a parasitic loss he couldn't find. I have a gut feeling it's a ground or voltage issue related to rain entry or high humidity.

 

[Joshman]

I never got back to note my fix on this one, but luckily this came down to mismatched battery post and aftermarket terminal clamp bore sizes. The military style clamps while correct on top of post was too open at bottom of post when tightened to regular “almost ready to strip tightness” (the posts and terminals are coned slightly for some reason). So I had to ream out the top of clamp a bit and over tighten to get a completely solid connection. This was hard to tell on the screw on style posts I had on the initial battery (because that could spin and strip easily being lead), but on the attached post new battery, I torqued on the connection after cruiser had heated up and I found I could spin them off by hand with a little muscle- kept working to tighten until I could not.

 

[TxTchRR]

I never got back to note my fix on this one, but luckily this came down to mismatched battery post and aftermarket terminal clamp bore sizes. The military style clamps while correct on top of post was too open at bottom of post when tightened to regular “almost ready to strip tightness” (the posts and terminals are coned slightly for some reason). So I had to ream out the top of clamp a bit and over tighten to get a completely solid connection. This was hard to tell on the screw on style posts I had on the initial battery (because that could spin and strip easily being lead), but on the attached post new battery, I torqued on the connection after cruiser had heated up and I found I could spin them off by hand with a little muscle- kept working to tighten until I could not.

Good info. I'll start with cleaning battery posts and tightening clamps, then move from there.