Blown Head Gasket! Right!? (1 Viewer)

[DoubleNickels]

I posted this in the "General" section and got zero replies. So, at the risk of getting my wrist slapped by the moderators, I'm re-posting here.

I picked up this 2F engine some time ago. The seller said it had a blown head gasket. So... I'm tearing into it. I've never blown a head gasket, nor have I seen one from the inside, so I have no idea how to verify the seller's diagnosis. Here's what I do know:

1) Some of the cooling channels on the block appear to have been blocked by the gasket. In these areas you can see the gasket started to blow-out and in some areas it ripped through. This leads me to believe the gasket was either the incorrect part number or incorrectly installed.

2) Some of the pistons look "charred" on the top surface. Is this due to coolant entering the combustion chamber and burning? If so that may align with observation #1, above.

I'm hoping you all can check out these pictures and say "Yep", "Nope", or "No idea". It'll help me plan my next steps for a budget rebuild. Thanks!

Oh, the pics:

 

[micruz60]

Really clean pistons, indicate steam cleaning, carbonized tops could indicate oil burning. Show a pic of the gasket, if it was not destroyed in removal. Also check 2F block serial number to verify proper gasket...

 

[gregnash]

All of what @micruz60 said... There is a correct and an incorrect way to install the gasket based on the age of the block (as the older blocks require a different gasket, especially if the engine came out of a 40). There is a tab on the gasket that goes to the REAR of the block, closest to the firewall. So just like the manifold gasket, it can be installed upside down/backwards and without close inspection seem fine.

 

[gregnash]

LOL... looking at the pictures again #3 indicate that the headgasket was installed backwards. You can see the edge of the block and where the gasket is currently installed does not match up. You can especially see this in #3 on the bottom left corner of the block/head gasket and where you can see the rounded edge of the gasket and the block below it protruding out (pointing due left).

However, it looks like in #2 that it was installed correctly? Did you take pictures at different times? Or am I seeing things????? @Output Shaft

 

[micruz60]

Ah, the gasket is still on! And the tab is to the rear, but it's hard to see if the fire ring or water path failed... between cylinders 2 and 3.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

head gasket blew between 2 and 3 as evidenced by the clean pistons. steam is a marvalous cleanser. scrape away old gasket, blow clean and rotate motor and repeat. chase threads and apply new head gasket with a freshened up head(SS SBC valves and springs, ala JimC(1.84" and 1.50"- ream the guides to accept the fatter stem, and grind the seats to fit the faces- DO NOT DRILL OUT AND REPLACE)). retorque after third heating cycle and at 500 miles. valve lashes at same intervals. everything else looks great.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

use the most updated gasket available(3FE maybe)

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

and at risk of being burnt alive, I say you can use any head gasket, provided the surfaces are flat, the threads are clean and the torque is applied will due diligence...

 

[60 toy ota]

pardon the question, but do you have experience diss/reassembling engines? I ask just because it would be a shame to see a good 2f put together but the head cracked cause the bolts weren't torqued in sequence, yada yada... figured the unnecessary question is better than an incorrect assumption.

 

[gregnash]

Oh yeah... follow the FSM for reinstallation and what not... And @LAMBCRUSHER I am pretty sure that we have all come to the conclusion that for the HG there is no substitute for OEM Toyota. Think a few have used the FelPro but ended up replacing in short order.

@DoubleNickels Talk with @beno about getting either the "kit" that has a whole bunch of gaskets in it or just the HG alone. The HG that is sold separately is different than the one that comes in the kit (believe KIT one is a Late model 2F/3FE gasket).

 

[SteveH]

I won't burn anyone alive, but a Toyota HG is ~$150+ and a Fel Pro is ~$35 from Rock Auto. For the $115 difference, I wouldn't want to do this job twice....

 

[DoubleNickels]

Holy moly, great feedback!

@micruz60 , thanks for clarifying on color/state of the pistons. I incorrectly assume the "clean" ones were the oil-saturated, not steam/coolant exposed. Makes sense. Also, as has been noted by someone above, the gasket is indeed intact and sitting there in the pics. I'll post more pics of the gasket on its own.

@gregnash , great pointers on orientation. I'll note this for future installs.

@Output Shaft , sage advice as always. So by "troubleshooting is over", I take that to mean that the state of the gasket and steam-cleaned pistons confirms the head gasket problem. Cool.

@LAMBCRUSHER , your advice for a thorough top-end rebuild is probably the right way to do things. However, I don't have an immediate "need" for this motor; not yet at least. I pulled the motor myself from the seller's 1984 (1985?) FJ60 for $100. My plan was to keep this on hand in the event my piggy's 1975 2F motor was hurtin'. Since the pig's motor seems fine, I'm still debating what to do with this spare. Not sure I want to throw that much cash at it. I'll do some head scratching and think through cash now vs. cash later (since, as we know, cutting corners usually leads to more costs down the road).

@60 toy ota , what's a head bolt? Seriously though, I'm right at that scary precipice of having enough experience to be dangerous. Considering this is a non-critical item (i.e. not my daily driver), I'm not afraid to jump in and take a shot. I've already done some disassembly, but this is my deepest dive into re-assembly. Someone here on MUD mentioned that good mechanics are just really damn good at reading manuals and following directions. I've taken this to heart and am well-equipped with FSM's. Thanks for checking, though!

@SteveH , noted. Back to that idea of penny-rich but pound poor. Probably worth doing right, once, instead of incorrectly a few times.

Thanks!

 

[gregnash]

I won't burn anyone alive, but a Toyota HG is ~$150+ and a Fel Pro is ~$35 from Rock Auto. For the $115 difference, I wouldn't want to do this job twice....

Actually, with that logic the difference in cost would be more like $265 ($115 for the difference + $150 for the OEM) not to mention the labor and other items that ended up being replaced while in there the second time (As I would probably have the head checked and cleaned again if the HG went).

@DoubleNickels Yeah figure out what you want to do with the second engine. I agree with @Output Shaft that you should get the head fluxed, cleaned, decked, etc. to ensure that there is no other issues that may need fixing. I thought my head was good when I took it in and found that one of the valve guides was actually right at the threshold of needing to be replaced. Since I had provided everything the shop went ahead and replaced all of them with the new guides and cleaned up that one particular valve specifically because of the one issue.

Hell, maybe look at AFI for a fun little kit to make your engine a bit different when the time comes to swap it in the piggy. Or you could just take the time to go over it with a fine toothed comb and make everything real nice and Purdy!!

 

[micruz60]

Waay back in the eighties, when the 2F in my Forty was overheating.... I went thru all of the gyrations to figure out what was wrong.... And the head was slightly warped, so a machine shop milled it down, I got a replacement HG, poor collidge stoodent budget style, and now, over 100,000 miles later, it is running fine, with a bit of oil blowby. I hope to do the recommended head upgrade that Lamb mentioned, stem seals and SS springs, valves. Hard to kill the 2F.

 

[Spike Strip]

You want the 11115-61030 HG, it should match the head if it's a 61040.

NHK-Pillar is the OEM and can be had for around $90, but if you mail order it MAKE SURE they will double-box as I've had many many arrive damaged cuz the dopes just throw the regular box in the mail. May come branded as a Stone JA11149, but only by itself, not in the kit - you will have to verify if this is still the case. Usually price is the indicator.

Some of the coolant passages will be blocked as the HG directs coolant to different areas.

Depending on your needs and time and money, it might be worthwhile to have the block honed, re-ringed, new bearings and hot tanked to go along with the fresh head.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

Guess I'm just dumb lucky...which is fine by me. better than the alternative...

 

[Spike Strip]

My HG turned into a full drivetrain rebuild.