2F TBi. Weighing options. Howell/Downey/AFI/MegaSquirt.

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Tigerstripe40

Tigerstripe40

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So, my 2F is going to get TBI fuel injection.
I have some of the parts, but am trying to determine the best way to go.

First, a 3FE is off the table. Primarily, because I have spent the money to build the 2F.
Secondarily, If I am going to (re)build another motor, I'm going to start with an LSX block...
And finally, from what I've gathered, a 3FE is significantly more effort to wire than a GM setup.

Second, a fuel injected GM V8 is off the table, as when I decide to do a fuel injected V8, I am going to order a complete, new motor from GM performance parts, such as the E-ROD LS3 or the truck equivalent (LM4?).

Third, diesel is off the table. I regeared to 4.88's, and I feel that the Toyota diesels are ridiculously priced, and then there is the fact that getting parts for the Toy diesels isn't quite so simple.

Primary use for the truck is offroad, but I do drive it on the street from time to time. My concern is reliability, primarily, with offroad performacne (eg off camber type driving).

What I currently have in my FJ40 is a desmogged 2F, with Jim C rebuilt carb, and a non-USA vacuum advance distributor with a pertronix points eliminator.

So here are the setups I am looking at.

Howell EFI.

Pro: EFI in a box, ready to go. Uses common GM parts. Well known company, with many happy customers.

Con: Ignition system is based on the stock ignition. When I called them to talk about it, the person on the phone hem'd and haw'd when I asked him about what the howell computer is expecting from the distributor (sine wave, square wave, on/off, etc). He was either not willing to give me the information I was after or didn't know (I would have preferred them to tell me 'thats our propriatary stuff' or 'I don't know').

Downey EFI
Pro: Well known, well supported, I already have the TBI adapter unit, throttle plate, and cable.
Uses common GM parts (I have a spreadsheet with all the parts, part numbers, etc, for this setup.
Wiring harness is still made by painless.

Con: Requires 78-87 2F Distributor, which I don't have and haven't been able to find (though I have not been looking that hard). If I go this route, I will be purchasing all new AC Delco parts (I many aftermarket parts are available and plenty reliable, I'd just rather have the peace of mind of new OE parts).

Affordable EFI.
Pro: Well known, well supported, less expensive option of all of them, depending on what I do for a distributor. I can use either DUI HEI dizzy, or use my current dizzy with tach filter.

Con: Potentially uses HEI distributor with Chinese parts. Though much stuff is made in china now.

Megasquirt.
Pro: I already have the MS1 V2.2 unit, stimulator, break out board, and intemediate wire.
Con: Most work of all of these, and I don't know if my MegaSquirt is working properly. Idle air system needs additional parts to make work as the MS doesn't control that part. I would need to wire and splice the system together myself.

In all of the cases, at least with the GM based stuff, I am going to be using a vehicle speed sensor.
I am leaning towards sourcing the Downey parts, and adding in a DUI HEI into the mix.

I am really just glazing the surface of my decisions here, any additional input?
 
I have never had good experiences with Howell personally. I don't know much about megasquirt. Have heard good things about affordable efi. I have an old downey kit. Whatever route you go with tbi, use as many sensors as possible, then I recommend you take it to a professional tuner to have a chip made just for your truck. I tried to have howell send me a few chips, wasn't happy. You really have to drop the coin to have it professionally tuned. Tell the tuner what characteristics you want it to have.
 
Hi all,

I bought a used GM TBI FI system here on MUD a few years ago. Installed it on the '78 2F in my 40 and it would not start/run. A friend with loads of electrical experience/knowledge went through the GM TBI wiring diagrams and determined that two wires at the ECM had been flopped; switch the wires and it works! :-)

But, although this TBI system works fine on the highway, it has never idled at the RPM that a 2F should (way too high!) I am still diagnosing the problem with this (have learned a lot along the way!)

What I am saying is that the 2F-E conversion (or just a straight engine swap to a 3F-E in hind sight seems to be an easier course of action than messing with the issues of the TBI (an OBD1 system) which is really just a carburetor replacement.

Good luck,

Alan


Tigerstripe40 said:
So, my 2F is going to get TBI fuel injection.
I have some of the parts, but am trying to determine the best way to go.

First, a 3FE is off the table. Primarily, because I have spent the money to build the 2F.
Secondarily, If I am going to (re)build another motor, I'm going to start with an LSX block...
And finally, from what I've gathered, a 3FE is significantly more effort to wire than a GM setup.

Second, a fuel injected GM V8 is off the table, as when I decide to do a fuel injected V8, I am going to order a complete, new motor from GM performance parts, such as the E-ROD LS3 or the truck equivalent (LM4?).

Third, diesel is off the table. I regeared to 4.88's, and I feel that the Toyota diesels are ridiculously priced, and then there is the fact that getting parts for the Toy diesels isn't quite so simple.

Primary use for the truck is offroad, but I do drive it on the street from time to time. My concern is reliability, primarily, with offroad performacne (eg off camber type driving).

What I currently have in my FJ40 is a desmogged 2F, with Jim C rebuilt carb, and a non-USA vacuum advance distributor with a pertronix points eliminator.

So here are the setups I am looking at.

Howell EFI.

Pro: EFI in a box, ready to go. Uses common GM parts. Well known company, with many happy customers.

Con: Ignition system is based on the stock ignition. When I called them to talk about it, the person on the phone hem'd and haw'd when I asked him about what the howell computer is expecting from the distributor (sine wave, square wave, on/off, etc). He was either not willing to give me the information I was after or didn't know (I would have preferred them to tell me 'thats our propriatary stuff' or 'I don't know').

Downey EFI
Pro: Well known, well supported, I already have the TBI adapter unit, throttle plate, and cable.
Uses common GM parts (I have a spreadsheet with all the parts, part numbers, etc, for this setup.
Wiring harness is still made by painless.

Con: Requires 78-87 2F Distributor, which I don't have and haven't been able to find (though I have not been looking that hard). If I go this route, I will be purchasing all new AC Delco parts (I many aftermarket parts are available and plenty reliable, I'd just rather have the peace of mind of new OE parts).

Affordable EFI.
Pro: Well known, well supported, less expensive option of all of them, depending on what I do for a distributor. I can use either DUI HEI dizzy, or use my current dizzy with tach filter.

Con: Potentially uses HEI distributor with Chinese parts. Though much stuff is made in china now.

Megasquirt.
Pro: I already have the MS1 V2.2 unit, stimulator, break out board, and intemediate wire.
Con: Most work of all of these, and I don't know if my MegaSquirt is working properly. Idle air system needs additional parts to make work as the MS doesn't control that part. I would need to wire and splice the system together myself.

In all of the cases, at least with the GM based stuff, I am going to be using a vehicle speed sensor.
I am leaning towards sourcing the Downey parts, and adding in a DUI HEI into the mix.

I am really just glazing the surface of my decisions here, any additional input?
Click to expand...
 
I REALLY want to see someone use an Offenhauser intake so they can bolt up a 4-barrel carb, then instal MSD Atomic EFI. It looks really easy to install.
 
Get in touch with orangefj45 at Valley Hybrids in ca. He set me up with fj60 large cap ball bearing electronic dizzy and dented side cover. Good guy and good to work with.

If your 2f is solid then you can look into a 2fe which just uses the 3fe head on a 2f block.

I have no experience with any efi kits. However, after years of reading about constant tinkering and tweaking I say either stay with carb or do a total factory efi engine swap like a modern LS engine. Junkyard 5.3's and 5.7's would be more than plentiful. There are companies that will re flash the computer and clean up the wiring harness, and tons of aftermarket support. Just seems like efi kits are more miss than hit, and nothing is worse than having an unreliable ride.
 
You should ask this on a efi related forum. Personally I'd go megasquirt. You have to do it all yourself but there is a ton of support and if you do it all and go thru it right then you can trouble shoot on your own if need be
THat said I know next to nothing about your other options.

I've seen a lot of success stories with megasquirt. Wideband O2 sensor and lots of time tuning. If you could find a good base map (for a Chevy 6??) then you'll be well on your way. If not log info with the wideband with the carb/ignition you have now and use that to set up the base map.


Pete
 
I put a Howell kit on a 68 F a few years back. I'm actually selling the truck for the owner now so it's back in my garage. Their adapter SUCKS so it's good you already have a Downey one. The truck has an HEI distributor on it but it's just a regular stock one for a carb with vacuum advance. The only connection to it is a tach signal. After getting past all the grinding I had to do in order to get their adapter to fit a 2F manifold and all the fabbing I had to do for the throttle linkage it was dead simple to install. I made a pretty trick bracket that mounts the ECU in the glovebox that attaches to the hood hinge bolts so it sits up high. I just used their chip. This has no VSS and just the tach signal from the dizzy. It does idle a little higher than it should (probably 850) but it seems to work flawlessly. Fires up instantly, doesn't stall, no wierd hesitations, smooth acceleration, etc. I would do it again. But not with their adapter.
 
Affordable Fuel injection all the way.

Personally seen them run on 3-5 2F motors and ran great.
Then at least 5+ V8's I know run the kit.

I have one on my 327 V8 and love it.

Good buddy had his on 2f and sent it back and they retuned it for his V8 swap.

Great products and great people!
 
Tigerstripe, I've advised you to not buy/use any kit that prevents you from using a VSS. I've also told you that the vehicle will run without a VSS, but you will have "Idle" problems. Two of the post above admit they did not use a VSS and that they do have idle problems. Not mentioned here, but another problem when not using a VSS is the engine can die when you come to a stop (i.e. throttle position switch closed, ECU thinks you no longer want to drive, no VSS working with 02 sensor to control idle functions, engine shuts off).

Further, back in the day when we were working with Howell (on the early Downey prototype systems), Howell tried to wire/program to enable use of the stock (non-electronic) dizzy- - -never worked. Eventually we said "if you are using a Chevy S-10 throttle body & ECU, why not also use every system that would have been on the same S-10" (all sensors/senders, and the same dizzy sine wave signal using the same S-10 ignition module). That's why we use the 1978-newer Landcruiser dizzy with GM ignition module mounted externally. Newer Landcruiser dizzy fits older Landcruiser engine, produces sine wave, then GM ignition module gives ECU precise signal it is looking for.

I'm sure there are alternatives that many have had success with, but our installation instruction manual says "If you get into trouble experimenting, return to ALL Chevy S-10 components".
 
Last edited:
snaggletto said:
Get in touch with orangefj45 at Valley Hybrids in ca. He set me up with fj60 large cap ball bearing electronic dizzy and dented side cover. Good guy and good to work with.

If your 2f is solid then you can look into a 2fe which just uses the 3fe head on a 2f block.

I have no experience with any efi kits. However, after years of reading about constant tinkering and tweaking I say either stay with carb or do a total factory efi engine swap like a modern LS engine. Junkyard 5.3's and 5.7's would be more than plentiful. There are companies that will re flash the computer and clean up the wiring harness, and tons of aftermarket support. Just seems like efi kits are more miss than hit, and nothing is worse than having an unreliable ride.
Click to expand...

OrangeFJ45 recommended Howell.

The 2FE is not really an option as my 76 block has domed pistons. The 3FE head requires flat top pistons, so I have to pull the engine out and put in new pistons -might as well hone the cylinders and while I'm in there... If I am going through THAT much work, I am going to probably source another complete motor.
 
Tigerstripe40 said:
Con: Requires 78-87 2F Distributor, which I don't have and haven't been able to find (though I have not been looking that hard). If I go this route, I will be purchasing all new AC Delco parts (I many aftermarket parts are available and plenty reliable, I'd just rather have the peace of mind of new OE parts).
Click to expand...

Can you use Trollhole's electronic distributor?
 
Megasquirt and make it do want you want it to. Not try to adapt something that does not adapt to your current system.

AFI would be my second choice.
 
davegonz said:
Can you use Trollhole's electronic distributor?
Click to expand...

I messaged Trollhole, and he said '... No. mine requires power and what you need is basically a switch on and off. I'm sorry.'
 
Downey said:
There are presently two FJ60 dizzys for sale here on Mud, either will work with the Downey style of wiring a TBI swap.
Click to expand...

I've messaged the seller and am waiting back to see if he has the proper side cover.
 
We use and modify the howell injection system. As long as the chip is burned specifically for your set up. There are no problems.
 
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