22RE Rebuild vs. PreBuilt

[jynx]

Lowe,

Thanks for those, I was wondering if it have made it up there yet. I think the funny thing is the two lifting handles in the box... Surely those are not for actual use. I may buzz you tomorrow to talk about a few other things to add to the "box"

We are set up to come down next Saturday, Got anything that I could do with the on Friday night. I am trying to decide if I should try and stay in ATL or come on down WR and stay somewhere there.

KLF,

Motor looks great. I am settled on the flak I am going to catch for the $$ I am spending, but I need a drop in motor and while I know the history of mine, I don't feel like chasing a block down that can be rebuilt with OEM internals, so the extra I am spending is my piece of mind that I have a solid bottom end.

Bryan89,

I was kind of hoping you would chime in. I took you comments pretty serious and really started reading and while, as you mentioned, I couldn't find any bad comments, I did find some interesting comments that led me to investigate more. The guys at Putney's sure seem to have a nice set up, but with LCE I can get a choice of cam and from the measurements, I believe slightly oversized valves for about the same price. I checked out their oil pump and their rocker shafts look to be a better deal than the Putney's (they sell the drilled shafts also). I have a full rocker arm set that I snagged from the pull-a-part a few years ago and the arms look to be in great shape.

Also, what did you do to your valve cover and intake? Just clean and paint or did you have them powder coated?

Thanks again guys,

Matthew

 

[Sam Stewart]

Lowe,

Thanks for those, I was wondering if it have made it up there yet. I think the funny thing is the two lifting handles in the box... Surely those are not for actual use. I may buzz you tomorrow to talk about a few other things to add to the "box"

We are set up to come down next Saturday, Got anything that I could do with the on Friday night. I am trying to decide if I should try and stay in ATL or come on down WR and stay somewhere there.

Thanks again guys,

Matthew

I'll be there tomorrow so give me a shout anytime. I would def stay in Atlanta and just drive down in the morning. There is exactly jack squat to do in Warner Robins. Take her to a nice dinner or something. Girls like that kind of stuff. OR, if you want to, you can stay somewhere down in Macon and we can all go out for a drink or something.

 

[bryan89]

jynx,
are the putney rocker shafts oem? the ones i got from lce were new oem shafts that they modified... they still had the toyota part numbers on them

my intake and valve cover were just cleaned and painted with high temp "aluminum" colored flat paint...several coats...
if i had it to do over again...i would entertain the idea of powder coating it. i did have a little touching up to do after i dropped it in and got everything settled in with the paint.

the reason i originally, shyed away from the powder coat on the valve cover was not the cost, but just the fact that it had to be bead blasted first. all it would take is one left over grain of sand in the valve cover to ruin my new valve train. and since the "splash tray" thing is permanently riveted into the top with no way to clean it out....i was super scared.

but if you could find a blaster that uses that baking soda type, or even take it to a machine shop and try and have it hot tanked...maybe it wouldn't need blasting.

 

[KLF]

I'll toss these up here now since the discussion has drifted to powdercoating. I picked these up a few weeks ago (I also got the lower intake done and a few other things)



The valve cover does take a lot of prep to do properly. I carefully drilled off the swaged heads that held in that baffle underneath, they are actually pins in the casting of the cover, not rivets. I then tapped them for #10-32 button head screws. There was a disgusting amount of dried engine oil crud under that baffle, even a hot tank would not have gotten it out (I don't think it's a good idea to hot tank a thin casting liked this anyway). The powdercoater probably wouldn't have done it without removing that baffle, too much of a chance to spoil the finish when it got baked. Bead blasting was required, just before putting the powder on.



The intake was also a lot of work to get done. I spent a lot of time with brake cleaner, a toothbrush, Super Clean, and the pressure washer to get it clean inside. He could have done more detail on the "EFI" casting but costs go waaaay up when you start to get into that.

I'll post pics of the entire engine when i get it together.

 

[bryan89]

KLF,
good call on the tapping. didnt think of that...looks really good man

 

[KLF]

You have to be VERY VERY careful when drilling the holes to tap. I did everything on my drill press with new sharp bits. There is not a lot of depth, so you have to be careful not to poke thru the top. I had a spare cover so I could afford to give it a try, if I messed it up.

You also have to get 2 taps, a regular taper cut then follow it up with a bottom tap so you get threads cut all the way to the bottom of the hole. Go very slow with lots of thread cutting oil.

I put the cap screws in pretty tight, with lockwashers AND red locktite. I was not able to get a new gasket for the baffle, so I just used gray "Right Stuff".

 

[Devil's Slide Doug]

If you were in Nor Cal, I would recommend Yodaman.
http://yodaman.net/index.html
He is not cheap but does build a decent motor. On the other hand, after I bought his motor, my Cruiser blew it's hg and had no budget left so I repaired it myself. After tearing into the 1fze motor I realized I could have saved some pennies and rebuilt the 22re myself. I don't know if he will crate up a motor and ship it.

 

[snobdds]

Jynx

I am biased, but I would go with the 22repreformance head with the updated oiling shafts on the rocker arms. It has made a huge difference with the valve train noise that most 22re's have. It is a nice head and have had zero issues with it.

Good job on going OEM block...you will like it.

 

[jynx]

Snobdds, thanks. I actually read thru your thread on yotatech several times before starting this goose chase. I looked really hard at the putney's engines, but based on your comments, it seemed like between the OEM shortblock and having them rebuild one with OEM internals, I would be pretty close to even. Did you opt for the performance head or the OE style head when you got yours? I am between them and LCE, and the main draw to LCE currently is that I can select the cam and from reading it may have just a little more tweaking then the Putney, course it is a little more, but comes with studs already installed.

LCE also sells the drilled rocker shafts, so more than likely I will get head cam and rocker shafts from one of the two.

ARP studs from LCE most likely, and maybe their oil pump.

In a week or so I hope to be putting it all together.

 

[snobdds]

I just got their preformance head with the oversized vlaves, port work, updated oil rocker arm shafts and cam. I have no idea what the grind on the cam was, but have not really noticed any "dead spots" in the pulling until about 5000 rpm. I have found with cams that they do not really add any power, they just move the power band around.

I can't believe that a new short block is only around $2k. I might just have to buy one and stick it away for a rainy day.

 

[Sam Stewart]

I just got their preformance head with the oversized vlaves, port work, updated oil rocker arm shafts and cam. I have no idea what the grind on the cam was, but have not really noticed any "dead spots" in the pulling until about 5000 rpm. I have found with cams that they do not really add any power, they just move the power band around.

I can't believe that a new short block is only around $2k. I might just have to buy one and stick it away for a rainy day.

I'll be happy to supply you with one!

 

[jynx]

I just got their preformance head with the oversized vlaves, port work, updated oil rocker arm shafts and cam. I have no idea what the grind on the cam was, but have not really noticed any "dead spots" in the pulling until about 5000 rpm. I have found with cams that they do not really add any power, they just move the power band around.

I can't believe that a new short block is only around $2k. I might just have to buy one and stick it away for a rainy day.

Thanks for the info. I am trying to decide if it is worth the extra $300 for the larger valves and port work. From either manufacturer it moves price point about the same, and that $ would pay for the rocker shafts and a set of ARP head studs. Course in the grand scheme if I am considering it at all, now is the time. Pulling to 5K is all I will ever need. Most of my driving is from off-idle to around 3500 so as long as it pulls solid in that range I am good.

 

[flash02]

Thanks for the info. I am trying to decide if it is worth the extra $300 for the larger valves and port work. From either manufacturer it moves price point about the same, and that $ would pay for the rocker shafts and a set of ARP head studs. Course in the grand scheme if I am considering it at all, now is the time. Pulling to 5K is all I will ever need. Most of my driving is from off-idle to around 3500 so as long as it pulls solid in that range I am good.

I used engbuilders big valve head with a higher lift cam, I'm very happy with the performance, I just got 23mpg on a recent road trip. 22RE 5SPD w/16" taco rims, LCE header back SS exhaust, and intake.

 

[jynx]

On the road to Warner Robbins to pick up the shortblock and some other goods tomorrow morning. Pics to follow in the morning, course Lowe already posted the good ones.

 

[Sam Stewart]

On the road to Warner Robbins to pick up the shortblock and some other goods tomorrow morning. Pics to follow in the morning, course Lowe already posted the good ones.

I didn't mean to steal your thunder. There are lots of other shiny bits to take pics of. Plus some better shots of the block out of the box would be good.

 

[jynx]

Got everything home and unloaded. No pictures cause after a stop at Ikea, the Marietta Diner, the Georgia Winery and the Outpost Armory we didn't get everything in until after 9. Will see about getting some pics tomorrow.

Want to tell everyone that Sam and his crew are great guys. Chris took good care of us and helped get everything loaded. Definitely good to have another great vendor on the board.

Now just to pick a head and start putting this little monster together.

Muhahahahaha..... well maybe not quite but you get the idea.

 

[jynx]

K so got a question. I am torn between a 22REperf performance head and OEM head bolts or a LCE mild head and a set of ARP head studs.

This is the last major purchase and the two items above add up to about the same. Are the studs really worth the extra $$ vs. the performance head?

Thoughts?

 

[Sam Stewart]

K so got a question. I am torn between a 22REperf performance head and OEM head bolts or a LCE mild head and a set of ARP head studs.

This is the last major purchase and the two items above add up to about the same. Are the studs really worth the extra $$ vs. the performance head?

Thoughts?

Any idea what the power difference is? If they're about the same price and the perf head is more power, I'd go that route. The OE head bolts should do fine for your application. If you were putting a turbo or something I might go with the studs.

 

[bryan89]

since i do not see a direct need for studs due to your application, i would rather use the oem bolts if it were me.
1. you don't know anything about the thermal expansion / heat cycling of the studs
2. if the installation process is different than oem, then you have no data to support whether or not it is a good reliable change
3. i know arp makes great products, but how long has this particular product been made for these engines? do you know if arp did any engine dynoing to simulate years of abuse? doubt it.


i guarantee both of these things were highly tested and confirmed by 25+ years of service in the oem bolts. seems like one way you KNOW you are safe, the other way, has several variables that are unkown.
would it probably be okay? sure. ....probably....


same deal goes for the head. now, i am no expert on 22re performance and i am not putting them down, but not living in California where i could visit each facitilty and talk with someone, I would be inclined to go with the LCE head. their website looks more professional to me and they seem like a bigger company.
which, to me, makes me think a larger company would have some sort of an actual quality system in place..where a smaller mom and pop type establishment might not.

again, just my opinion from the info i have available.

edit: example
look at this video posted by 22re performance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhPfTOwguJY&list=UUav4NM5uSmA3VIuF6lw94iQ&index=10&feature=plcp
what he is saying is correct, no doubt. BUT look in the background...there is a washing machine and a shelf with a bunch of random shiz on it. looks like someone's garage to me... not a professional clean room for sure
AND he is working on an engine hanging in free air. To me, a truly professional engine builder would have that thing mounted on a stand securely so its not going anywhere.

 

[jynx]

Well I have made a few calls and after talking to several folks, I will be ordering a 22RE Stage II head with either their stock or 270 cam.

I did a lot of reading and talking and in the end the decision was two fold. I have a very good friend that had a VERY bad experience with LCE and their customer service. Short story is they did not stand behind their product and it cost him some serious coin. I know they have a lot of satisfied customers but I know what he went thru and don't want to go that road. Secondly after talking with Jim at 22RE for about 30 minutes, I know more than I did about the toyota head and feel confident that he knows what the heck he is doing. (FYI look for a bench flow test coming from them soon on Youtube)

That plus he just seems more personable. So once I get that all lined up I will be ready to start putting this puppy together.