Starter causes fire (1 Viewer)

[lovetoski]

My wife mentioned that the 80 started "funny" late last week. Said she had to pump the gas to get it to start (usually starts w/out any gas pedal). A few days later she called while out running errands and said it was really hard to start, and something sounded funny, and she was worried she wouldn't make it home. I was replacing the waterpump on my 60, and just told her to come on home, but to call if anything else happened. She called 3 minutes later...said the car was acting really wierd, as if it was trying to start itself - even though it was already running - and it couldn't make it up a hill. I could hear the starter over the cel phone. I told her to pull over and shut it off. She did, and the starter kept trying to start. Then she told me there was a bad smell...at which point she got out of the car, looked underneath, and saw sparks! I told her to hang up, and call 911. The firemen put out the fire (two of them were cruiser owners, natch.) Since I'm travelling all this week, we had it towed to a shop we trust.

The cause is obvious I guess - the starter siezed in the start position, the current draw was so high that the wire melted, sparked, and started a fire nearby. The shop mentioned that they've had two other Toyota starters fail in a similar way. (Both of the others were on cruisers too. )

They will complete the damange estimate tomorrow. Some wiring damange for sure. Not sure how extensive. The computer - don't know yet. Nothing electrical works, but that's probably a fusable link...

So, is this just a "gotcha" in the game of life? Or, be honest now, I can take it, am I a moron and missed something?

 

[ppc]

Failed starter contacts caused the starter to stay engaged. This has been posted too many times for everyone not to be aware of the potiential problem.

 

[Beowulf]

Doug,

>> My wife mentioned that the 80 started "funny" late last week. <<

This was your first clue to the somewhat common requirement to replace the starter contacts when they give you the warning signs.

Something very similar happened to a friend this week. His wife was driving their FJ60 at the time and his new starter got completely fried.

Don't beat yourself up about it but it might be a good idea for all of us to give the wife a basic "pull a battery cable" lesson.

-B-

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Hopefully it's just the starter and a fusible link. At least the shop has some experience with the same type of problem. The good thing it will be fixed when you return. Still sucks to have problems especially when you are gone and you cant do anything.

Good luck

 

[lovetoski]

Both of you are very kind - apparently I could have been more on the ball. I've had starters fail on other cars of course, and I've never had one fail in the "engaged" position. They fail by not engaging at all. I skimmed the posts on starter failures, but didn't catch this important difference in how Cruiser starters fail.

Live and learn.

 

[Rich]

The starter contacts get worn & pitted, develop high resistance, and can then become spot welded to the plunger in the "start" position.

As common as the problem is, I would guess that the starter draws more current than the solenoid contacts can properly manage. My contacts were worn beyond the wear limits at 50k miles. Most go longer. Given that they often fail "stuck on" I consider the problem a design defect. If it weren't for the knowledge shared on this and other 80's forums, I wouldn’t have known to check mine before trouble came my way.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

If this is a common problem would it be worth it to fuse the main feed to the starter? Does/can the starter staying engaged happen without pre-warning?

 

[Riley]

You can't really/practically fuse a starter lead due to the high current draw. Better to design the contacts to take more current and not pit.

 

[Rich]

Check this out: http://www.bluesea.com/catalog_.pdf/fuseblocks/pg_9.pdf

My dual battery install will likely be fused at each battery positive cable connection. This would be to protect against a dead short of the main cable. Particularly motivated by the fact that I will be running a positive cable across the engine compartment in front of the radiator.

 

[RavenTai]

I am glad to hear your wife is OK, does not sound like the damage it to extensive, this could have easily been a full loss if the fire had spread, the fuel lines travel very close to the starter

A fuse is normally sized for the max continuous rating or less of the wire, should the circuit try to draw more than the wire can safely handle the fuse opens preventing a fire, the starter draws much more current than the factory battery cable can handle continuously, so a fuse sized small enough to protect the cable would blow when you tried to start because a series wound motor acts very much like a short until it starts turning, a fuse sized large enough to start the motor would not prevent the cable from catching fire if the starter hangs,

a larger gage cable would lengthen the time before the wire "emits smoke" (FAA spec) if you know how much current the starter draws wile continuously turning you could possibly build cables to handle it (for sizing cables you do not have to worry about the much larger initial inrush as the cable is still cold at that point), they would likely be very large and the starter itself would eventually overheat, would the starter itself open before it caught fire?

Maybe the best solution is changing the contacts on a regular basis, install extremely large battery cables and a marine switch under the hood, if the starter hangs you have enough time to pop the hood and turn the switch off before anything catches fire, removing battery terminals would take some time and sometimes they are hard to remove not a good option

anybody know what the starter draws? They are called 1.4 2.0 and 2.2KW that crosses over to 140, 200, and 220 amps at 10v, since they are pretty low #'s I am would think that is the draw wile turning at speed?


Anybody have a clamp on amp meter? Starter current would vary widely based on RPM and temperature but that would give us a ball park figure, could build for 150% of tat figure

good wire chart http://www.montac.com/mustang/wiringtools.htm per that chart double oght (sp?) 3/8” dia conductor would carry the above loads if they are correct

 

[GXO]

Wonder if mean green has the issue?

May be worth it to some to just go to another type of starter to prevent this.

I would do it if it happened to me.

 

[RavenTai]

was in wally world this morning picking up fertilizer, saw a small 1lb automotive B+C (flammable liquids and electrical) fire extinguisher thought of this thread and grabbed it up, now have to find a good place to mount it, almost fist between the drives seat and door but not quite, probably going to mount it to the 3rd row support somehow

took a look at the positive wire for the starter and it was much beefier than I was expecting, about 3/8" w/insulation maybe awg 2 or 1? most OEM power wire is pretty cheesy, another + for the cruiser

 

[yomama]

[quote author=DanKunz link=board=2;threadid=15824;start=msg150864#msg150864 date=1083751939]
Wonder if mean green has the issue?
[/quote]

Interesting thought. I would assume not, but one shouldn't assume. I have the Mean Green Starter and Alternator. Has this failure happened to anyone with a Mean Green?

Yomama

 

[PHAEDRUS]

Hey doug,
sorry to hear about the cruiser but as long as everyone is ok than cruisers can be fixed. Just an FYI for those of you who dont know something like this would be covered under the comprehensive section of most auto insuarnce companies. let me clarify a bit. the starter itself would not be covered as it was a mechanical part that broke and caused a failure. however if there was a lot of damage (ie the main wiring loom melted) then the parts that were damaged by the fire would be covered by your policy. one of the kind of weird things you learn in my job but thought I'd throw it out there. PM me or post back if you have any questions.
Dave

 

[CDN_Cruiser]

[quote author=RavenTai link=board=2;threadid=15824;start=msg150887#msg150887 date=1083762253]
was in wally world this morning picking up fertilizer, saw a small 1lb automotive B+C (flammable liquids and electrical) fire extinguisher
[/quote]

Raven:

Great idea and probably not a bad one to have in the cab. You may want to consider some 'heavy artillary' (like a 10lb+) for the back as you will be amazed at how fast 1lb goes wher you're having fun ...as they say, you'll shoot faster than a 16yo on prom night (sorry for the 35% content). Very hard to stop any kind of engine related fire with a 1lb.

Doug: sorry for the loss, glad wife is ok. All things considered you got off without a problem. The PO of my old 60 was having a problem with the drive shaft and decided to drive to the dealer. He was * literally * within 1/4 mile when the shaft blew and took the transfer case with it. I've now had a couple of situations where I've just told my wife to stop/shut down and call for a tow, rather than risk huge damage...gotta love CAA/AAA!

Cheers, Hugh

 

[Shortbus]

Could install one of these..

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/hella.htm

 

[Gumby]

I know it isn't much help when your wife is driving, but all you have to do it wack the starter with something hard. The weld will break loose and the contacts will disengage. My 80 starter failed on when my wife was driving two hours away. A garage pulled the battery cable while I drove up to tap on the starter with a hammer so I could drive it home.

 

[Brentbba]

Doug, first glad your wife is ok. Second, EXACT thing happened to me and I'm the dumb fawk. I knew the starter was going...recognized the symptoms from the first time the starter went. I let it go one day too long. Starter seized just like yours. It fried the alternator and drained the battery. Fortunately, I didn't have a spark/fire like you did. Replaced both the starter and alternator. Battery held a charge so I didn't have to replace it as well.

Reading your post was like revisiting a small nightmare. Best of luck.

 

[NorCalDoug]

Glad to hear everyone's safe.

Had the same thing happen to me on the '94 LC I used to own. This was before I saw any discussion about starters, contacts, etc. As most everyone has mentioned, you should get the warning signs ("non-starting-click", "hard-to-start", etc.) before it gets stuck on.

It's real freaky when it happens though. Mine would run fine at idle, but the engine would start "bucking" when RPMs got over 2500. And the starter would keep turning when I tried turning it off. I recall the dash lights going nuts as well.

I got one of the tell-tale non-starting clicks on my current rig the other day. I'm making an appt with the dealership to have them fix it (I still have about 3k miles on my CPO warranty! ).

 

[greglomax]

How about the 100's?

Has anyone had this same problem with the 100's?