Builds Shipwreck (5 Viewers)

[SuperBuickGuy]

a bit of background. Not complaining calling anything or anyone out - but as no one seems to mention this... time to shed some light

It was suggested (I'm being kind, let's just leave it there), when I built this rig, that I'd hate driving it without hydro assist. They were wrong, it would fly at 75/80 mph down the freeway and drive straight and true. Now? 60 seems like the limit. I'm going to try some alignment tricks to see if I can make it track true again - but right now, it's a wandering beast. Basically the hydro assist is acting like a powered stabilizer and you have to constantly fine-correct the steering. On smooth ground - it's not even that good there but on rutted roads.... uff da.

Honestly, I'm considering removing it then installing it at trailheads ... that or trailering (which I loathe the thought).

With that said, I'm not sorry I put it on there - it does help, especially when crossed up, get my full range of turning back.

So what's next. Install the welder. But at the same time I'll put a bit more caster at the wheels and try a bit of toe-out. Right now, it's neutral and IIRC 3* ....
The other choice would be move the sway bar to the front (which will be a challenge), then remove the rear sway bar. The problem with that is it would screw with the IC traction I get from its design. A reminder, when I nail the throttle, the triangulated 4 links lift right about at the point where the input shaft meets the flywheel. By having the rear sway bar, it plants both wheels and up I climb. The front does some pulling but mostly it's doing the steering.... ah the fun of making a rig that is safe to drive at highway speeds and good on the trails.....

 

[peesalot]

You are spot on with the feel of the hydro assist, with the 4 turn sag box it helps to upsize the fittings & hoses , speeds up the system but you have to figure out how to enlarge the orrifice on the ram fittings too, I find my hydro slows the system down a bit, barely noticsble until you try and flip a u turn in a court or something o fthat nature.

 

[Rock40]

Man I don’t know, guess I’ll weigh in tho

I‘ve had a PSC 1.5” ram on my 40 for 12 years now. Paired with a PSC box and pump, I’m running a different filter and reservoir tho

I have zero issues at highway speed. Is it a bit touchy? Yes, and you get used to it really quick and it certainly doesn’t feel like it’s wandering or unsafe. I towed my loaded M416 down to Rubicon in ‘22 and did 70-75mph on much of HWY 97 where I could get away with it.

I will say that the steering got WAY tighter when I fully boxed everything on the front frame rails, ditched all the bolt on factory bumper crap and solidly welded a bumper in place. If your truck has been wheeled hard like mine, I’d suspect that you might have quite a bit of frame movement up by the box. After I did this it was like driving a race car; a huge night and day difference.

If you believe there’s zero chance you’re having any frame flex then I’d dig into how well the components (box, pump, ram) are matched. From what I understand, that can make a huge difference

Oh, and I’m running all 6AN stuff on both the pressure and return

Pic of the front frame completely tied together solid in one piece

 

[Rock40]

Oh, forgot to mention that I would triple check and verify that you have ZERO play in your sector shaft. I’ve had boxes get loose over time and the truck starts to drive a bit like you describe. I think the ram actually may compound the steering issues created by a box with a worn sector shaft bushing.

And I’m running a rear sway bar too with front/rear coils and links. At least on my 40, there’s zero room for a front sway bar

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Oh, forgot to mention that I would triple check and verify that you have ZERO play in your sector shaft. I’ve had boxes get loose over time and the truck starts to drive a bit like you describe. I think the ram actually may compound the steering issues created by a box with a worn sector shaft bushing.

And I’m running a rear sway bar too with front/rear coils and links. At least on my 40, there’s zero room for a front sway bar

Certainly things to consider.

All of those things would certainly affect how it drives. The front suspension is tight and boxed. Not just like yours but the entire front area in front of the radiator cross member is boxed and plated. In addition to that, I've added a brace to area where the steering box is (above the axle, Scout 2 box).

I didn't see what steering box you're running on yours - my box was completely rebuilt when I started, and rebuilt again because I'm an idiot and didn't listen to that voice in my head that said "that doesn't seem like it's enough balls on the shaft" after I had disassembled it to drill the ports. In short, the box is brand new (twice). All the lines are -6 but I probably should have ported the internal line that runs to the front of the box.

That said, flow isn't the issue - it's staying on center. When driving, any divot in the pavement (or runt) will get you drifting in the direction it pushed you. Before, the on center feel was like driving a well-sorted race car at speed - even if the road was rutted or uneven. But then again maybe I'll get used to it. There are some who hated that you needed to let go of the steering wheel when you nailed the throttle (it would turn but the '40 would go dead straight) - it wasn't a big deal to me because I was used to it.

I'll play with the alignment tomorrow and report back if it makes any difference. Thank you for the check list.

Pictures for reference... The box after latest rebuild

and the racecar

 

[Rock40]

Certainly things to consider.

All of those things would certainly affect how it drives. The front suspension is tight and boxed. Not just like yours but the entire front area in front of the radiator cross member is boxed and plated. In addition to that, I've added a brace to area where the steering box is (above the axle, Scout 2 box).

I didn't see what steering box you're running on yours - my box was completely rebuilt when I started, and rebuilt again because I'm an idiot and didn't listen to that voice in my head that said "that doesn't seem like it's enough balls on the shaft" after I had disassembled it to drill the ports. In short, the box is brand new (twice). All the lines are -6 but I probably should have ported the internal line that runs to the front of the box.

That said, flow isn't the issue - it's staying on center. When driving, any divot in the pavement (or runt) will get you drifting in the direction it pushed you. Before, the on center feel was like driving a well-sorted race car at speed - even if the road was rutted or uneven. But then again maybe I'll get used to it. There are some who hated that you needed to let go of the steering wheel when you nailed the throttle (it would turn but the '40 would go dead straight) - it wasn't a big deal to me because I was used to it.

I'll play with the alignment tomorrow and report back if it makes any difference. Thank you for the check list.

Pictures for reference... The box after latest rebuild

and the racecar

Hmmm, ok. I didn’t realize you were running Scout 2 box. I‘m running a GM 4 bolt Saginaw from PSC, new when I installed it

I ported a factory GM 4 bolt box years ago myself and didn’t experience any of the issues you describe. And by porting I mean simply drilling it for left/right fluid flow. Eventually the sector shaft on the stock box gave out. I‘ve also modified stock GM pumps for more pressure before I went the all PSC route. Everything I read from PSC stated that matched components was ultra important, of course they are biased towards selling their own products.

Obviously you mentioned the alignment, I run probably about 3/16” to 1/4” toe in measured with the tires installed

One other thing with the sector shaft, only because it got me before. If your ram isn’t perfectly set up on stroke or isn’t internally limited in relation to the box, it’ll destroy the sector shaft bushing. I know because my first PSC box suffered that fate as the steering box as was hitting it‘s “stop” at full lock driver and the ram was pushing it just a BIT further. And just a very small amount of sector shaft play leads to enormous issues in handling, which is especially pronounced at highway speed

 

[Rock40]

Oh and I forgot this. I’m doing my M715 build and when the PSC box for that build arrived it had VERY specific instructions related to the neutral clocking of the sector shaft. Essentially if the sector shaft isn’t “neutral” when the tires are pointed straight ahead it can lead to odd steering characteristics as there is some internal fluid “push” or force when there shouldn’t be

To make sure the installer doesn’t screw it up, PSC had paint marked neutral reference marks on both the sector shaft spines and steering box casting. That could be something to look into also

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Oh and I forgot this. I’m doing my M715 build and when the PSC box for that build arrived it had VERY specific instructions related to the neutral clocking of the sector shaft. Essentially if the sector shaft isn’t “neutral” when the tires are pointed straight ahead it can lead to odd steering characteristics as there is some internal fluid “push” or force when there shouldn’t be

To make sure the installer doesn’t screw it up, PSC had paint marked neutral reference marks on both the sector shaft spines and steering box casting. That could be something to look into also

the box is still moving a bit at the frame (side to side in the vertical plane). The easy fix is tie it to my coil over mount... the other choice is cut the frame and add frame stiffeners... basically cut 3 sides crossways in the frame then install plates and weld them in place.... not elegant by any stretch.... so I'm still thinking my way through possibilities....

Lernin' keep up the suggestions, they're helpful

 

[Rock40]

Cool, if there is ANY movement at the box/frame/mount you are certainly going to notice it at speed. Merry Christmas

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Cool, if there is ANY movement at the box/frame/mount you are certainly going to notice it at speed. Merry Christmas

the hope with the hydro assist was to reduce the flex at the box.
That said, I'll say it again. Even with the box flexing, it was stable at speed before I put the hydro assist on it. Truly a plot twist.

 

[cruzinfj1]

Just an idea, but have you checked your track bar over? Make sure the rod ends are tight and bolts torqued? The ram may have just amplified something you had going on there prior. Again, just a thought.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Just an idea, but have you checked your track bar over? Make sure the rod ends are tight and bolts torqued? The ram may have just amplified something you had going on there prior. Again, just a thought.

Replaced one before I went to California, and it was the oddest thing..... one end was worn, the other pristine.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Sooo....
right now the transfer case has a low gear of 2.62:1. Let me present 4:1

and very stout

of course, the 'coming soon' is pulling the t-case and pulling it completely apart, then doing a bit of machining then put it all back together (hopefully not unintentionally lightened)

and the welder...

I better get to work

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

time to start on the 4:1 conversion

got stopped almost as quickly as I started... I'm going to replace the front output with a 32 spline (which means this case has all the mods)

drained the oil but I may take it off the lift for a day or two while waiting for the last batch of parts

 

[JungleBiker]

What t-case are you using? I forget. And where did the 4:1 set come from?

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

What t-case are you using? I forget. And where did the 4:1 set come from?

It's a Dana 300, JB Conversions

 

[JungleBiker]

It's a Dana 300, JB Conversions

Ah, thank you.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

more shiny parts - but the main part won't be here until next Wednesday

and an aside - you may wonder why I didn't do all this when I built the rig.... answer - money and time.... I didn't want to take the body back off the frame or have to mess with the suspension once it was done so I focused on doing those 'permanently' and did the minimums on everything else.
Point is I can get stalled with my ADD - if I do, it's not even even odds I'll start back up again. I have 2 projects that got dead stopped by parts, one will be done someday, the other, I don't know - I kind of doubt it because others love it far more then I do (a 50 Buick Sedanet and Fiat Spider with a moved firewall and suspension capable for an LS with turbos respectively).
I've been upgrading this since I first wheeled it. I still have a few more things before it will be just maintenance. But there's the build theory - get it on the road and worry about the other stuff once you've run it.
What's next? this round has a welder install, hydro-assist steering, and 4:1 gearing. Next will be selectable lockers and probably steeper (higher numeric gears - probably 4.88 or 5.13) with selectable lockers.... then what? drive it long enough that people think it's a patina ride. But those will wait until the Blazer is done....

 

[Firemedic831]

more shiny parts - but the main part won't be here until next Wednesday

and an aside - you may wonder why I didn't do all this when I built the rig.... answer - money and time.... I didn't want to take the body back off the frame or have to mess with the suspension once it was done so I focused on doing those 'permanently' and did the minimums on everything else.
Point is I can get stalled with my ADD - if I do, it's not even even odds I'll start back up again. I have 2 projects that got dead stopped by parts, one will be done someday, the other, I don't know - I kind of doubt it because others love it far more then I do (a 50 Buick Sedanet and Fiat Spider with a moved firewall and suspension capable for an LS with turbos respectively).
I've been upgrading this since I first wheeled it. I still have a few more things before it will be just maintenance. But there's the build theory - get it on the road and worry about the other stuff once you've run it.
What's next? this round has a welder install, hydro-assist steering, and 4:1 gearing. Next will be selectable lockers and probably steeper (higher numeric gears - probably 4.88 or 5.13) with selectable lockers.... then what? drive it long enough that people think it's a patina ride. But those will wait until the Blazer is done....

I think we all do the same thing to a degree . Build them take them out and think what can we do to make them better . We would be watching someone else post about our rigs in the other section as they built them for us if we didn’t like building them . I myself try and build in seasons Jan -March. May and Nov Dec are when my rig can be down .

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

I think we all do the same thing to a degree . Build them take them out and think what can we do to make them better . We would be watching someone else post about our rigs in the other section as they built them for us if we didn’t like building them . I myself try and build in seasons Jan -March. May and Nov Dec are when my rig can be down .

I do Search and Rescue - our 'busy' time is from first snowfall to last snow melt.... this year, 4 month, other years... 5-7 months. Thankfully, I have multiple recovery choices (including snowmobiles and a snow cat) - so being down for longer periods doesn't really matter but only because I have choices.