Reliability called into question (2 Viewers)

[Rednexus]

the suburu in question (late 1970's) I referenced got high 20's....at least mine did before the rear seat floor rotted completely out and seat started err....getting close to the highway.....they were FWD with part time rear

The first gen outback style awd wagon dropped to low 20's

10-20% drop in efficiency isnt trivial on a daily driver just between PT 4WD and AWD option

2000 Forester 5MT/EJ251: ~25 mpg at interstate speeds, 27-28 mpg at 2-lane speeds. Owned from 2009-2020.
2014 Ouback CVT/FB25: ~28 mpg at interstate speeds, 30-34 mpg at 2-lane speeds. Owned from 2014-2023.

The 5MT/viscous coupling center diff Forester was by far the more fun of the two to drive, despite having leaky head gaskets and other issues. The FB was a better engine on paper and more efficient, but had very little "fun to drive" in it. It was better off-road than the Forester though.

 

[stridertexas]

I have actually started looking at the defender recently as a replacement for my 4Runner. I was originally thinking the 250 was the way I wanted to go but I honestly like the way the defender looks both inside and outside and it really isn’t priced much differently than the 250. I certainly have lower expectations on reliability but I’m trying to gauge how much lower it may be.

After owning 4 LCs (62,100x2,&200) I decided to jump into a LR when 200 series pricing hit $85-100k for PO units.

I felt like at that price level, the LCs value to “price for reliability ratio” had exceeded what I was willing to pay.

So I took the plunge on a ND110 and have been thoroughly pleased with it. It rides AMAZING on the road and is almost as nimble as an X5, imo. And its ability to offriad has just been impressive. But I will never hard core rock crawl anything so I don’t care about that.

Mechanically the Ingenium line of motors are proving to be reliable. LR is so advanced computer wise, that’s where problems have occurred. But I don’t care.

I spent $10-15k less than a 200 cost and I mental marked that money for future repairs & glad I made that choice.

Now with that said, the 250/550 are less $ than NDs now so the “reliability to price ratio” imo is back in line. But the quality of the fit and finish and interior is definitely below LR.

With all that said I am excited to get my 550 and have the ND both in my garage. They’re both super cool vehicles.

 

[Smitty512]

Oh lawd. Here we go again…

 

[MeWantLC]

After owning 4 LCs (62,100x2,&200) I decided to jump into a LR when 200 series pricing hit $85-100k for PO units.

I felt like at that price level, the LCs value to “price for reliability ratio” had exceeded what I was willing to pay.

So I took the plunge on a ND110 and have been thoroughly pleased with it. It rides AMAZING on the road and is almost as nimble as an X5, imo. And its ability to offriad has just been impressive. But I will never hard core rock crawl anything so I don’t care about that.

Mechanically the Ingenium line of motors are proving to be reliable. LR is so advanced computer wise, that’s where problems have occurred. But I don’t care.

I spent $10-15k less than a 200 cost and I mental marked that money for future repairs & glad I made that choice.

Now with that said, the 250/550 are less $ than NDs now so the “reliability to price ratio” imo is back in line. But the quality of the fit and finish and interior is definitely below LR.

With all that said I am excited to get my 550 and have the ND both in my garage. They’re both super cool vehicles.

Thank you for the feedback. I tried to reach out but your are unreachable. If you get a few spare minutes,please dm me. Thanks again for the quick overview

 

[2021 LC200]

After owning 4 LCs (62,100x2,&200) I decided to jump into a LR when 200 series pricing hit $85-100k for PO units.

I felt like at that price level, the LCs value to “price for reliability ratio” had exceeded what I was willing to pay.

So I took the plunge on a ND110 and have been thoroughly pleased with it. It rides AMAZING on the road and is almost as nimble as an X5, imo. And its ability to offriad has just been impressive. But I will never hard core rock crawl anything so I don’t care about that.

Mechanically the Ingenium line of motors are proving to be reliable. LR is so advanced computer wise, that’s where problems have occurred. But I don’t care.

I spent $10-15k less than a 200 cost and I mental marked that money for future repairs & glad I made that choice.

Now with that said, the 250/550 are less $ than NDs now so the “reliability to price ratio” imo is back in line. But the quality of the fit and finish and interior is definitely below LR.

With all that said I am excited to get my 550 and have the ND both in my garage. They’re both super cool vehicles.

Funny. A Toyota breaks down and now a new Land Rover Defender, by some magic without issues, is a good reliability/value trade off. Oh well...

 

[stridertexas]

Funny. A Toyota breaks down and now a new Land Rover Defender, by some magic without issues, is a good reliability/value trade off. Oh well...

My point was don’t read into the TFL reviews too much, they f’ed up the introduction to the ND.

That Tacoma is likely still a fine vehicle.

 

[jayp2]

2000 Forester 5MT/EJ251: ~25 mpg at interstate speeds, 27-28 mpg at 2-lane speeds. Owned from 2009-2020.
2014 Ouback CVT/FB25: ~28 mpg at interstate speeds, 30-34 mpg at 2-lane speeds. Owned from 2014-2023.

The 5MT/viscous coupling center diff Forester was by far the more fun of the two to drive, despite having leaky head gaskets and other issues. The FB was a better engine on paper and more efficient, but had very little "fun to drive" in it. It was better off-road than the Forester though.

I had offered that my late 70's Suburu part time 4WD wagon got high 20's for mileage and the next gen 80's AWD got closer to 20

Comparing two vehicles of same era, a fair comparison

Not sure what you expect to illustrate by throwing your own observations out there on a couple vehicles that are decades newer

The published numbers for both of your vehicles are far far less than what you've claimed.

The fact still remains that 2WD/Part Time 4WD versions of vehicles are significantly more efficient than their AWD cousins.

I'm not digging anyone on their personal choices but the facts are the facts and AWD is less efficient, more complicated with higher up front costs and higher costs to maintain over the life of the vehicle.

 

[AndrewTK]

Funny. A Toyota breaks down and now a new Land Rover Defender, by some magic without issues, is a good reliability/value trade off. Oh well...

To be fair the same TFL crew went through 3 defenders due to various issues so I’m certainly not equating the Tacoma breakdown with a jump to the defender being more reliable. For me it comes down to pricing vs an Overtrail + and I personally think I like the Defender better from an appearance standpoint both inside and out as well as the fact it runs an inline 6. I think I want more headroom for towing over what the LC250 offers, I’ll likely never tow anything that weighs 6000+ lbs but we have looked at some trailers in with GVWRs nearing 5,000 lbs and I dont think the LC250 will be that enjoyable towing a load of that size. I also said I fully expect less reliability from the Defender if I were to go that route so I understand the trade off going into it. That said we also have 3 Ducatis in our garage so Im no stranger to vehicles with questionable reliability…

 

[Jetboy]

To be fair the same TFL crew went through 3 defenders due to various issues so I’m certainly not equating the Tacoma breakdown with a jump to the defender being more reliable. For me it comes down to pricing vs an Overtrail + and I personally think I like the Defender better from an appearance standpoint both inside and out as well as the fact it runs an inline 6. I think I want more headroom for towing over what the LC250 offers, I’ll likely never tow anything that weighs 6000+ lbs but we have looked at some trailers in with GVWRs nearing 5,000 lbs and I dont think the LC250 will be that enjoyable towing a load of that size. I also said I fully expect less reliability from the Defender if I were to go that route so I understand the trade off going into it. That said we also have 3 Ducatis in our garage so Im no stranger to vehicles with questionable reliability…

FWIW, be careful with LR tow ratings. They're not using the same standards as the ASE rating Toyota uses. The LR manual says the tongue weight engineering limit is 330lbs or 771 lbs. And no weight distribution hitch. How you'd tow 8k lbs with 350lbs of tongue weight is a bit confusing to me unless you're pulling a wagon. Even 8k lbs with 771lb tongue weight is questionable.

 

[AndrewTK]

FWIW, be careful with LR tow ratings. They're not using the same standards as the ASE rating Toyota uses. The LR manual says the tongue weight engineering limit is 330lbs or 771 lbs. And no weight distribution hitch. How you'd tow 8k lbs with 350lbs of tongue weight is a bit confusing to me unless you're pulling a wagon. Even 8k lbs with 771lb tongue weight is questionable.

I have read similar, but realistically the max i envision towing is in the low 5k range. Right now we tow a Schutt Xventure XV2 that weighs ~2,500 loaded with our 5th gen 4Runner and it isn’t enjoyable especially in the mountains or in a headwind.

 

[Jetboy]

I have read similar, but realistically the max i envision towing is in the low 5k range. Right now we tow a Schutt Xventure XV2 that weighs ~2,500 loaded with our 5th gen 4Runner and it isn’t enjoyable especially in the mountains or in a headwind.

I'm sure ether option will pull that very nicely. I had similar thoughts about my 5th Gen. I towed a variety of trailers. The 1GR just isn't well isolated or geared for towing in those. I pulled a shadow cruiser 193mbs a few thousand miles. It was fine, but not great. Chassis was great. Motor was lacking. Lots of hills in 3rd gear. Much nicer behind my powerstoke and now Tundra. But I still used the 4R for trips when I needed to stay under 40 feet total length like national parks. 4Runner never faltered or had any trans or engine temp issues.

I'm a bit skeptical how the new turbo 4 would do with a trailer this size. It's well within the tow rating. But will the t4 have enough power and reserve power to make it enjoyable?? Not sure. I think the defender engine output looks better. As would a GX or Sequoia. They'd pull this little trailer with ease.

 

[Rednexus]

The published numbers for both of your vehicles are far far less than what you've claimed.

I'm confused by this statement - did you actually look up the published numbers? If you didn't look them up, here they are:

I'm not digging anyone on their personal choices but the facts are the facts and AWD is less efficient, more complicated with higher up front costs and higher costs to maintain over the life of the vehicle.

This thread is about a brand-new part-time 4x4 vehicle which experienced a failure. For a apples-to-apples comparison - 4x4 Toyotas that are either part time 4x4 or full time AWD with a center diff lock - the part time version is more complicated and more failure prone than the AWD version. All for (as others have pointed out) no gain in rated fuel economy. From having owned high-mileage AWD vehicles for the past 15 years, I've had exactly zero AWD-related failures of any kind.

You are choosing a very odd hill to die on with some of your anti-AWD arguments that aren't grounded in fact or reality.

 

[Jetboy]

In fairness, there's plenty of all wheel drive Center differential t-case shift actuator failures too. The AWD model doesn't reduce failure points. Its not even reducing the number of dog clutches. It's one less clutch in the differential housing in one more in the transfer case.

Transfer Case Actuator Failure

Now on my 3rd transfer case actuator failure in less that 4 years. I finally managed to confirm that it's due to water and contaminants (lots) entering the actuator somehow. Other threads here indicted that breather line could be the cause and found it was somewhat perished. My question though...

forum.ih8mud.com

The AWD models do eliminate the differential needle bearing. That's a win. (If there's still a needle bearing in this generation, Toyota has lost some credibility as QDR. There's no excuse.) And you can use an ARB front locker without obnoxious highway noise from the unpolished spider gears.

mpg isn't a big difference. Maybe 1mpg. There would be meaningful mpg benefits with locking hubs to reduce the spinning parts.

 

[2021 LC200]

In fairness, there's plenty of all wheel drive Center differential t-case shift actuator failures too. The AWD model doesn't reduce failure points. Its not even reducing the number of dog clutches. It's one less clutch in the differential housing in one more in the transfer case.

Transfer Case Actuator Failure

Now on my 3rd transfer case actuator failure in less that 4 years. I finally managed to confirm that it's due to water and contaminants (lots) entering the actuator somehow. Other threads here indicted that breather line could be the cause and found it was somewhat perished. My question though...

forum.ih8mud.com

The AWD models do eliminate the differential needle bearing. That's a win. (If there's still a needle bearing in this generation, Toyota has lost some credibility as QDR. There's no excuse.) And you can use an ARB front locker without obnoxious highway noise from the unpolished spider gears.

mpg isn't a big difference. Maybe 1mpg. There would be meaningful mpg benefits with locking hubs to reduce the spinning parts.

That TC failure was due to deeper water crossings and ingress of water via the transfer case vent. This is not normal use in my book, nor would I recommend for the starter, alternator and electrical connections in general.

 

[Phillyd2]

Part Time vs Full Time 4WD should be used instead because there are many vehicles with AWD which is a completely different animal.

 

[jayp2]

I'm confused by this statement - did you actually look up the published numbers? If you didn't look them up, here they are:
View attachment 3577661
View attachment 3577662

There's nothing confusing about it, its proof positive that the newer AWD iterations get crappier mileage than the late 70's part time 4WD wagons got

Hell, my 83 long bed toyota truck regularly got 26 mpg with a 22R motor in it in RWD
My HZJ77 got almost 25 MPG last summer on 750 mile run of combined driving mostly in RWD

This thread is about a brand-new part-time 4x4 vehicle which experienced a failure. For a apples-to-apples comparison - 4x4 Toyotas that are either part time 4x4 or full time AWD with a center diff lock - the part time version is more complicated and more failure prone than the AWD version. All for (as others have pointed out) no gain in rated fuel economy. From having owned high-mileage AWD vehicles for the past 15 years, I've had exactly zero AWD-related failures of any kind.

You are choosing a very odd hill to die on with some of your anti-AWD arguments that aren't grounded in fact or reality.

I wasnt the one who began the discussion about mileage, I only correctly added the facts about AWD vs 2WD and complexity/mileage

AWD systems fail all the time.

There are lengthy forums about the Subaru AWD failures including symptoms and common fixes
BMW's xDrive is notorious for epic failures

If Toyota has taken its largely bomb proof part time 4WD and introduced the equivalent of "Shear Pins" to the now unnecessarily complicated system then they sure as hell better make it field serviceable or there are gonna be a lot of pissed off customers

 

[M1911]

From having owned high-mileage AWD vehicles for the past 15 years, I've had exactly zero AWD-related failures of any kind.

You are choosing a very odd hill to die on with some of your anti-AWD arguments that aren't grounded in fact or reality.

I put 135k on my '03 V8 4Runner with the Torsen center diff. No AWD failures of any kind. I bought my 2013 200 used with about 30k on it. I've put another 70k miles on it. No AWD failures of any kind.

The Torsen center diff has been bulletproof in my experience. I've heard of some folks getting actuator failure if they didn't exercise the diff lock now and then. So exercise the diff lock and lo range actuators now and then. Have the Torsen serviced per the manual (diff oil changed).

 

[Phillyd2]

And I've had more than a few BMW xDrive and Torsen center diff vehicles without any issues but anecdotal examples don't prove a point. Then again one kid's Hyundai HTRAC AWD has also been perfect so maybe we are just lucky.

 

[Acrad]

On the 460 anyway ...the last 7 years.. I've paid attention to failures reported in forums, FB, and others .... any reported transfer case issues are almost without exception on vehicles that have had very little use of the CDL or the 4H/4L actuator and over 100k miles. There are exceptions of course but that is what I have seen. I've not personally had any transfer case issues over the years. My AWD Infiniti uses some transfer case setup as it is primarily a RWD vehicle that engages the front as needed... supposedly similar in design to a system used in the Porsche 959. Then there is a light duty Haldex setup I have in a CX-5. One of my nephews still has my old '96 AWD 5.0L Explorer with that Borg Warner 4404 setup.. never an issue. I change fluids a lot in transfer cases so maybe that helps.

 

[Jetboy]

That TC failure was due to deeper water crossings and ingress of water via the transfer case vent. This is not normal use in my book, nor would I recommend for the starter, alternator and electrical connections in general.

It shouldn't have water in it unless a seal fails. Same with the ADD. They're nearly identical devices. And nearly the same height. They fail the same way. They're all pretty reliable if they're used occasionally and not wrenched on by monkeys. I don't think the AWD systems are any more reliable than the part time.

The only place there's a big difference is in the tundra and Sequoia that have significantly heavier duty cases than the land cruiser models. But they're also built for heavier use.

Water crossings add pretty normal in my world. Just depends on how you use it and where. An off-road SUV had better TTbe ready for water crossings. That's a pretty basic requirement.

The vast majority of LC owners never once engage 4hi or 4lo for the entire life of the vehicle. Id bet it's less than 1% of LXs are ever shifted. So theyd never know if they failed.