TCases on 100s (at least the earlier ones, not sure about '03 and up) are the manual linkage shifting type, like found in the 80-series.
Another 100 Tranny Gone? 2002 96K HELP! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Cypher
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TCases on 100s (at least the earlier ones, not sure about '03 and up) are the manual linkage shifting type, like found in the 80-series.
At first thought, it almost sounds like the input shaft splines may have stripped in the torque converter, this causes a physical disconnect between the engine and the transmission internals, back when I worked at a trans shop, I replaced the converter in a Camry for this issue, and I bought a Caravan that wouldn't move for $100 and it ended up being the same issue. There is a possibility the front pump may be bad, as you said you heard a whine from the bell housing area when cold (this could of course be the converter too).
BUT, I just re-read what you said about the sound you heard when you put it in Park, and it sounds like the output shaft in the trans was still spinning and the Park prawl whirred against the gear it is supposed to mesh with. So then that makes me think the disconnect is happening after the transmission, in the transfer case.
Now, I don't know if I actually offered any help, lol, but I hope you get it figured out in a timely manner, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg!
Oh, and don't mind me, I'm just a lurker who loves 100s, and I finally decided to buy one come spring time, so I'm back here lurking, lol.
BUT, I just re-read what you said about the sound you heard when you put it in Park, and it sounds like the output shaft in the trans was still spinning and the Park prawl whirred against the gear it is supposed to mesh with. So then that makes me think the disconnect is happening after the transmission, in the transfer case.
Now, I don't know if I actually offered any help, lol, but I hope you get it figured out in a timely manner, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg!
Oh, and don't mind me, I'm just a lurker who loves 100s, and I finally decided to buy one come spring time, so I'm back here lurking, lol.
From the owner's manual:
(k) Unengaged “Park” Warning Light
This light warns that the transmission
“Park” mechanism is not engaged. If the
four- wheel drive control is in the “N” position
while the selector lever is in the “P”
position, the transmission will disengage
and the wheels will not lock.
(k) Unengaged “Park” Warning Light
This light warns that the transmission
“Park” mechanism is not engaged. If the
four- wheel drive control is in the “N” position
while the selector lever is in the “P”
position, the transmission will disengage
and the wheels will not lock.
scottm
SILVER Star
Tough to guess on this one. The transmission is attached to the T-case, so it's hard to diagnose where things stopped turning between the engine and driveshafts. Is there any way to determine if the transmission internals are turning, like pulling a transmission cooling line to see if it's pumping fluid? Or is there an access plate somewhere you could look in? How about the T-case, any way to see if things are rotating in there? I just crawled under my '03, there are some plates that might come off, not sure what might be the repurcussions of pulling things apart for a look.
Not great timing, sorry for that, wish I was within driving distance to come poke at it with you.
Not great timing, sorry for that, wish I was within driving distance to come poke at it with you.
I can't seem to drop the A/T P light issue. In looking at both the owner's manual and the FSM, the only way that light can come on is if the t-case neutral switch is closed. In looking at page TR-7 (1895), it's not completely clear what activates the switch, but it's likely the position of one of the shift forks.
Therefore, it seems to be unlikely that the problem is either upstream (transmission) or downstream (shafts, diffs) of the t-case. I suppose there could be multiple failures, but that too seems very unlikely.
So... I'm thinking there was either some catastrophic failure in the t-case (could explain the clunking sound around the bell housing) or broken linkage allowing the t-case to slip into neutral.
Therefore, it seems to be unlikely that the problem is either upstream (transmission) or downstream (shafts, diffs) of the t-case. I suppose there could be multiple failures, but that too seems very unlikely.
So... I'm thinking there was either some catastrophic failure in the t-case (could explain the clunking sound around the bell housing) or broken linkage allowing the t-case to slip into neutral.
Cypher
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- Thread starter
- #26
All posts are welcome and very helpful, so thank you!
I am on the same page with you. Everything other than the park issue points towards the torque converter or transmission. However, the park issue indicates something downstream of the transmission. As I mentioned before, while cycling the t-case shifter, everything felt the same as it always has, so if there is a failure in the t-case, it has not affected the way the shifter feels. If the t-case is in neutral after a failure, that would also explain the reason why the truck rolls so smooth with no noise when physically pushed.
The words of that exact paragraph have been running through my head since the failure. I keep thinking about the fact that I was cycling the transfer case from H->N->L and back a bunch. I know when I have been out wheeling and go from Low back to High the AT/P light has stayed on for sometime or until I turn off the truck. I am now not sure if the light was staying on for this reason or if for actual failure reasons. That being said, the truck did roll while it was in park and while the AT/P light was on. I am nearly positive that the t-case was not in neutral at that time. However, when you have two kids complain about being hungry, cold, tired, its 27 degrees outside, its nearly mid-night, the
has the worried look on her face, and stranded on the side of I-10 nearly in the middle of no-where, I could have overlooked something, just a chance haha.I am very much so looking forward to getting back to the truck in the next day or two to do more troubleshooting.
Thanks!
I was going to ask the same question. If there was a way for me to be able to tell if things are turning in the transmission or t-case. Anyone else have a good idea on troubleshooting this one?
I can't seem to drop the A/T P light issue. In looking at both the owner's manual and the FSM, the only way that light can come on is if the t-case neutral switch is closed. In looking at page TR-7 (1895), it's not completely clear what activates the switch, but it's likely the position of one of the shift forks.
Therefore, it seems to be unlikely that the problem is either upstream (transmission) or downstream (shafts, diffs) of the t-case. I suppose there could be multiple failures, but that too seems very unlikely.
So... I'm thinking there was either some catastrophic failure in the t-case (could explain the clunking sound around the bell housing) or broken linkage allowing the t-case to slip into neutral.
Awesome!
Thanks for posting the diagram. I don't have my laptop with me that has the entire FSM, which would come in really handy right now. The broken linkage keeps sounds more and more likely. If you think about it, that could also explain the fact that there was no noise when the failure occurred. If the failure simply caused the t-case to slip into neutral immediately upon the failure, the chances of wickedly gnarly sounds of metal exploding could have been prevented. If this is what occurred, it also could have saved other portions of the drive train as well.
Thank you everyone for the helpful posts! Keep the ideas coming and potential ways to troubleshoot the issue.
If I were to place $$, I'd guess that the motor actuator or clutch sleeve is shot.
Not really. I'm still not familiar enough with these vehicles, but I can't think of a scenario other than a blown center diff that would provide zero resistance while in park. I think the tranny would do something in one of the gears.
Did you by chance remove an incorrect bolt or screw when changing fluids? I know some trannys and xfr cases gave bolts that look like drain plugs. These bolts retain shifter detents that prevent shift rails from overextending. Screw plug Part# 19 is of concern .
Cypher
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- Thread starter
- #30
Fair enough... Thanks for the suggestion nonetheless!
As for the t-case bolts, that is a negative. I only touched the fill and drain plug. I can see what you are saying with #19, that would seriously mess some crap up if you didn't know what you are doing. You can see my t-case fluid swap How-to here: https://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series-cruisers/441936-diy-transfer-case-fluid-change-how.html
scottm
SILVER Star
I'm thinking screw plug #19 is in place, because most of the "feel" of shifting the T-case would be that detent ball and spring snapping into notches in the shift fork shaft. Looks like the transfer indicator switches simply sense that shaft as it extends under each of them, can't be too sure on that. Hopefully something in the T-case just came disconnected, doesn't sound like any catastrophic noises happened.
I think you're onto something. A blown center would explain both rolling vehicle and no power. However, it wouldn't explain the lack of A/T P state change. Could just be a lazy A/T P (neutral) switch? Would also explain normal H-N-L shift movements/feel.
Thanks Cypher for making me feel welcome.
Like you say, it sounds like the t-case is in neutral, but it's a tough call on what is actually causing it without digging in to the t-case. If there is an issue with the shift fork (broken?), it would be Shift Fork No. 1, as Shift Fork No. 2 and the actuation motor for it lock the center diff. Now the other question is: Is the normal feeling of the shifter because of the detent, or because Shift Fork No. 1 is actuating properly, and there are some stripped splines elsewhere is the t-case (center diff)? As OregonLC said, it's unclear what actuates the Neutral and Low switches. If it is simply the shift shaft, then you would think the AT/P light would turn off when you shift it to H or L.
Hmmm
Like you say, it sounds like the t-case is in neutral, but it's a tough call on what is actually causing it without digging in to the t-case. If there is an issue with the shift fork (broken?), it would be Shift Fork No. 1, as Shift Fork No. 2 and the actuation motor for it lock the center diff. Now the other question is: Is the normal feeling of the shifter because of the detent, or because Shift Fork No. 1 is actuating properly, and there are some stripped splines elsewhere is the t-case (center diff)? As OregonLC said, it's unclear what actuates the Neutral and Low switches. If it is simply the shift shaft, then you would think the AT/P light would turn off when you shift it to H or L.
Hmmm
When you shift gears, do the indicator lights in the instrument cluster change?
Cypher
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- Thread starter
- #35
Exactly... As I was saying, the lazy AT/P switch has been something that I have been seeing for sometime now. There have been a number of times when the AT/P light would stay on until I turn off and restart the truck after cycling the t-case.
Thanks Cypher for making me feel welcome.
Like you say, it sounds like the t-case is in neutral, but it's a tough call on what is actually causing it without digging in to the t-case. If there is an issue with the shift fork (broken?), it would be Shift Fork No. 1, as Shift Fork No. 2 and the actuation motor for it lock the center diff. Now the other question is: Is the normal feeling of the shifter because of the detent, or because Shift Fork No. 1 is actuating properly, and there are some stripped splines elsewhere is the t-case (center diff)? As OregonLC said, it's unclear what actuates the Neutral and Low switches. If it is simply the shift shaft, then you would think the AT/P light would turn off when you shift it to H or L.
Hmmm
No problem, thanks again for the posts.
As soon as I get the truck back home this week, I am going to check the fluid in the t-case to see if I find any evidence of disaster. If there are splines that are stripped, I should be able to see plenty of metal on the drain plug. Again though, upon failure there was zero sound. In my previous experience stripped splines or gears makes a very noticeable sound. This is the part that keeps confusing the hell out of me.
Indicator lights on the dash are working as expected. While doing some limited troubleshooting I had the better half in the truck changing transmission gears and I didn't hear anything coming from the transmission.
This also makes me wonder if there is something that has occurred in the tranny that is causing it to be stuck in neutral much the same as some have theorized about the t-case...
Cypher
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- Thread starter
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Alright, so it looks like I will be reunited with my Cruiser for a short period of time tomorrow after I get a rental car to get my ass back to Phx.
I highly doubt I will be able to fix anything tomorrow, but I am going to spend about an hour troubleshooting before getting back on the road. I carry enough tools to do a decent amount of work. I have a list in my head to try but want to hear any other ideas. Does anyone have any ideas to try? Post up! Thanks again for everything!
I highly doubt I will be able to fix anything tomorrow, but I am going to spend about an hour troubleshooting before getting back on the road. I carry enough tools to do a decent amount of work. I have a list in my head to try but want to hear any other ideas. Does anyone have any ideas to try? Post up! Thanks again for everything!
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I don't know enough about the inner workings of the tranny/t-case to make anything more than a semi-edumuhcated guess...
You didn't hear the typical "marbles in the garbage disposal" from a diff blowing, or any other horrendous noises, other than the tapping noise from the bell housing that you mentioned. We've pretty much ruled out the differentials. With nothing else to go off of, and everything else apparently working as it should (as far as you can see, at least), I'd focus on the transmission. It rolls smoothly, you can't hear any other noises, and you have no gears regardless of the transfer case position or locker on/off. I'm going to guess that something sheared in the transmission or torque converter, which is giving you the physical disconnect that you're describing.
That doesn't explain the issue with the parking pawl and the AT/P light being on (this points to the t-case), but a noise from the bell housing and a failure somewhere in the t-case at the same time seems incredibly unlikely.
I'm confused now too, the more I think about it. Is there some kind of safety disconnect that puts the t-case in neutral due to a transmission failure? You did say that the cruise control module bounced the RPMs off of the rev limiter. Could the vehicle be stuck in some kind of limp mode due to a failure somewhere?
I dont think you're going to be able to figure this one out on the side of the road, unfortunately...
You didn't hear the typical "marbles in the garbage disposal" from a diff blowing, or any other horrendous noises, other than the tapping noise from the bell housing that you mentioned. We've pretty much ruled out the differentials. With nothing else to go off of, and everything else apparently working as it should (as far as you can see, at least), I'd focus on the transmission. It rolls smoothly, you can't hear any other noises, and you have no gears regardless of the transfer case position or locker on/off. I'm going to guess that something sheared in the transmission or torque converter, which is giving you the physical disconnect that you're describing.
That doesn't explain the issue with the parking pawl and the AT/P light being on (this points to the t-case), but a noise from the bell housing and a failure somewhere in the t-case at the same time seems incredibly unlikely.
I'm confused now too, the more I think about it. Is there some kind of safety disconnect that puts the t-case in neutral due to a transmission failure? You did say that the cruise control module bounced the RPMs off of the rev limiter. Could the vehicle be stuck in some kind of limp mode due to a failure somewhere?
I dont think you're going to be able to figure this one out on the side of the road, unfortunately...
Have any of the previous documented transmission failures been accompanied by a CEL? My folks lost the trans in their 03 TL-S on Turkey Day and it was accompanied by an array of lights. If so, the absence of warning lights (other than the A/T P) may be a good sign of a lesser problem.
Can you get any trouble codes tomorrow?
When your wife was shifting, did you notice the control shaft lever moving?
When your wife was shifting, did you notice the control shaft lever moving?
Things to do:
Check linkages to trans and t-case.
Unplug elec connectors to trans and t-case, spray with contact cleaner.
If have code checker, see if there are any codes.
Drain a little bit of oil out of t-case to see if it has bunch of metal.
Check condition of AT oil on dipstick, smell, burnt?
If the dash shift position lights are not working, pull center console and check wiring at bottom of shift level. These switches are also the inputs to transmission control circuit.
Check linkages to trans and t-case.
Unplug elec connectors to trans and t-case, spray with contact cleaner.
If have code checker, see if there are any codes.
Drain a little bit of oil out of t-case to see if it has bunch of metal.
Check condition of AT oil on dipstick, smell, burnt?
If the dash shift position lights are not working, pull center console and check wiring at bottom of shift level. These switches are also the inputs to transmission control circuit.
