I wonder..fuel tank pressure,engine temps... (1 Viewer)

[cruiserdan]

Some rambling going on here so please forgive me if this is disjointed.

Some have reported excessive tuel tank pressures. I experienced some of that in early September when I went from ~5,000 feet to over 8,000 feet and it was hot.

1FZ engines are running hotter than they used to.

I was listening to Morning Edition on NPR a couple days ago and there was an interesting report about increasing the ammount of ethanol blended in gasoline from 10% to 15%. Some entity, I forget which one but it doesn't matter, has been testing the effect of that increase. This piece discussed how ethanol can affect rubber components in older vehicles and other concerns. The first batch of vehicles tested was 2000-2009 models and the result was that they run OK.

One of the detractors stated that he was concerned because ethanol burns hotter than gasoline.......... In addition it's boiling point is lower than gasoline.............


The 80 was designed to run on straight gasoline and the EVAP system was designed to deal with straight gasoline.......................

I bet that ethanol is at least part of these problems and I bet that adding more of it to future fuel blends will make the problems even worse.......


I can't find any gas around my neck of the woods that hasn't been cut by ethanol..............



Discuss:

 

[fe sus]

Could the higher temps be offset with a larger/more efficient radiator? Aux. fan? More off the wall... but I always have used fuel heaters on all my diesel cruisers... maybe a fuel cooler could be rigged? Some sort of AC tie-in near the charcoal can?

 

[cruiserdan]

Most of us have tinkered with the cooling system, myself included.

 

[OGBeno]

I can't find any gas around my neck of the woods that hasn't been cut by ethanol..............



Discuss:

I know where you can get some....but you'd have to be coming in with a 757...

 

[AShoe]

I can't comment on the potential damage to the rubber, but ethanol has a lower fuel content as well as a higher octane rating than gasoline. This translates into ethanol burning slower than gas and having less potential to cause pre-detonation. The real problem could be that with lower fuel content do our older ECU's know how to compensate or is it causing the engine to run lean. The lean conditions are what would potentially cause the high combustion temperatures, however this is necessary to get relatively decent fuel economy with ethanol mixed gas.
Even with 15% ethanol it would only have 4-5% less fuel content than pure gasoline.
The other potential problem is that they may be using a less pure fuel blend because ethanol's high octane rating compensates for a poor quality gasoline. That is entirely speculation.

 

[rhyary]

Yap. The NY Times had an article about it. I read that and got concerned for our cars as well.
I read at least one article about a year ago that said the 10% Ethanol created problems in Boat engines and owners had to open up engines for cleaning.
But I am not into boats and I don't know first hand if this is true.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/b...ethanol.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=15% ethanol&st=cse

 

[cruiserdan]

I know where you can get some....but you'd have to be coming in with a 757...

I can't use jetA but unleaded av-gas.......

 

[Tools R Us]

Some rambling going on here so please forgive me if this is disjointed.

Some have reported excessive tuel tank pressures. I experienced some of that in early September when I went from ~5,000 feet to over 8,000 feet and it was hot.

"Gasoline" would be better called motor fuel now days, it has little to do with the gas of old. Alcohol is a part of it, but there are many changes that add up to the “problem”. Very different fuels are delivered to areas depending on altitude, average temp, politics, etc, some are very much “boutique" fuels. For example the Phoenix area gets a lower vapor pressure fuel than the rest of the state, even though other parts of the state are hotter?

The fuel is used to cool the injection system, so the longer you drive, the warmer the fuel becomes. If you fill with relatively low altitude fuel, drive relatively continually to a higher altitude, the pressure is likely to exceed the design of the vapor recovery system and vent. My guess is, new cars will eventually go to bladder type tanks, like in the Prius, to solve the “problem”.

1FZ engines are running hotter than they used to.

I haven’t noticed a significant increase, any is likely due to age?

I was listening to Morning Edition on NPR a couple days ago and there was an interesting report about increasing the ammount of ethanol blended in gasoline from 10% to 15%. Some entity, I forget which one but it doesn't matter, has been teasting the effect of that increase. This piece discussed how ethanol can affect rubber components in older vehicles and other concerns. The first batch of vehicles tested was 2000-2009 models and the resuld was that they run OK.

If you are getting your “tech” from the radio, probably best to do some more research for facts. IMHO they have no problem bending, warping, ignoring the facts to fit their agendas. Most alcohol problems were with rubber and some metals (like magnesium), they were mostly solved in the late seventies. Now most all fuel components are made from synthetic rubber and alcohol friendly metals. Some manufactures ignored the memo, but for most, it isn’t an issue.

One of the detractors stated that he was concerned because ethanol burns hotter than gasoline.......... In addition it's boiling point is lower than gasoline.............

A quick study into the race classes that run alcohol will show that the hotter part is BS. Alcohol is actually a great motor fuel, it is very clean, has high octane (~110), so is capable of making a ton of HP. If you look at a midget, indy car, etc, will see that the cooling system is very tiny in comparison to HP output, because it runs very cool in comparison to gas. There are some problems with it like: It doesn’t vaporize well at low temps, so the motor often needs to be started on gas then switched to alcohol. It also has a lower energy (btu) content, so more is needed to do the same work.

My guess is; with the proper mods (higher compression, bigger injectors, etc) it would be relatively simple to setup a 1FZ to run on alcohol. It would make great HP, burn very clean and only need a Samurai size radiator to run cool. Other countries (like Brazil) have figured it out and done it successfully, so if we had the will, efficient source, etc, you would think the US could?

The 80 was designed to run on straight gasoline.......................

I bet that ethanol is at least part of these problems and I bet that adding more of it to future fuel blends will make the problem even worse.......


I can't find any gas around my neck of the woods that hasn't been cut by ethanol..............



Discuss:

IMHO, it is more about the total blend that we are forced to run, than simply the single alcohol ingredient. The alcohol thing as a great political hot potato, that is big fun to argue, with all sides twisting the facts so badly that it just becomes a huge mess. It is unfortunate, there is the possibility that alcohol could be a good thing in the total energy picture, if we have an efficient source, etc, with the opaque political smoke screen, it is impossible to tell?

 

[cruiserdan]

If you are getting your “tech” from the radio, probably best to do some more research for facts.

I do not get my "tech" from the radio. I do however get thought-starters from the radio.

Perhaps current "motor fuels" in general are a problem for some older vehicles such as the 80.




I get all my tech from Red Green..................

 

[Tools R Us]

... I get all my tech from Red Green..................

Nothing but the best, duct tape forever!

 

[inkpot]

I do not get my "tech" from the radio. I do however get thought-starters from the radio.

Perhaps current "motor fuels" in general are a problem for some older vehicles such as the 80.




I get all my tech from Red Green..................

Boy, ya had me worried there for a minute. I was starting to doubt your sources!!

The fact that modern "fuels" are available in different "vapor pressure formulas" tells me that there is an increased chance for problems with it, especially in older iron that was not designed to deal with it. I have noticed the increase in tank pressure in my Piggy, also. While alcohol/ethanol may be a good candidate for fuels, I sure wish there was a reliable source for plain old gasoline for our plain old vehicles.

Personally, I think we are "Hi Tech"-ing ourselves into stupidity, but that's another story. John

 

[MaddBaggins]

Much discussion here https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/292965-excessive-fuel-tank-pressure.html As the thread progresses, the fuel issue becomes more the likely culprit. I've been chasing this issue for a few years.

 

[cruiserdan]

I was thinking of that thread, along with engine temp issues, as I was listening to the radio piece.

 

[Nay]

I think there is no question our rigs are struggling with current blends. I started to get some fuel smell in dead of summer (because I posted to the last thread on this) and Dan has money for a new CC accordingly, which is, I suspect, why he started this thread so be careful if you choose to respond

I have two stations of the same company brand on different sides of interstate within a quarter mile of each other. The older station has almost always been priced about 20 cents higher a gallon than the other.

When one does research on ethanol you find it reduces, at current prices, the cost of fuel by about 20 cents a gallon. I have always wondered how or why this one station as higher prices, and there is no ethanol content label on the pump as required by state law for fuel that contains ethanol.

So I have been buying fuel here and paying the premium, but I haven't asked the knob at the counter if they are selling ethanol free fuel.

I ran a highway only tank 2 weeks ago at 15 mpg (not bad on my 37's and lift) and had 300 miles before the low fuel light came on, which was about 30-40 miles better than usual. No odor, and this was during a late summer hot spell (somewhat relative for some of you, but low 90's down in Denver). Too many variables to know if all of this is ethanol, but I am buying the more expensive fuel as I am getting better economy right now and it is paying for itself.

I am really looking at the 50 state CARB compliant GM crate e-rod packages. These are completely modern engines designed to run on alcohol blends and while a large spend have the potential to basically make an 80 a completely modern vehicle.

A much cheaper swap is more likely, such as the Atlas 4.2 thread currently under discussion, but I think fuel mixture is going to drive an engine swap within 1-2 years completely independently of the usual considerations of power/economy because this issue improves the business case substantially.

Or better said, if can smell fuel, a new engine may be on the way as that is far cheaper than a new vehicle

 

[cruiserdan]

I like the way you think.

I have been dreaming of a 6.1 HEMI conversion (425 horse) and now I have an excuse.......

 

[MaddBaggins]

Every station I have found in Tucson has stickers saying "up to 10%" ethanol. I rarely have the issue in town only, but any significant elevation gain during a hot day overwhelms the evap system and I get big time gas smell. Once I opened the tank and gas actually started spewing out of the tank. I got doused trying to put the cap back on.

 

[mikgrail3]

It's unfortunate that nearly all the gas stations in AZ have switched to an ethanol blend. I found this site that lists reported ethanol free gas stations. There are only two on the list for AZ.

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

I have noticed the gas smell at times, too. Especially when I leave Phoenix and head to elevation. I have had excessive pressure periodically as well. Not to the point of spraying though. 3FE here.

 

[Tools R Us]

I think there is no question our rigs are struggling with current blends. I started to get some fuel smell in dead of summer (because I posted to the last thread on this) and Dan has money money for a new CC accordingly, which is, I suspect, why he started this thread so be careful if you choose to respond

If your vapor system tests bad, repair it. But with just about any gas powered rig you are going to smell fuel vapor under certain conditions.

...
I am really looking at the 50 state CARB compliant GM crate e-rod packages. These are completely modern engines designed to run on alcohol blends and while a large spend have the potential to basically make an 80 a completely modern vehicle. ...

Or better said, if can smell fuel, a new engine may be on the way as that is far cheaper than a new vehicle

If the is incapable of occasionally smelling gas vapor, your best bet is to change fuel, propane maybe?

The motor has little/nothing to do with it. Our use for gas is explosive, when injected into the motor we expect it to vaporize and burn quickly, fire proof gas wouldn't work so well? Gas doesn't burn, gas vapor does, it has to be volatile, evaporate. The question is where do you set the vapor pressure? To low and performance is lost or the motor wont run, too high and it excessively vaporises in storage. Atmospheric pressure and ambient temp has a lot to do with it, so the answer is complicated, there can't be a universal "best fuel" for all areas.

It is a fuel storage issue, vapor recovery/pressurized systems have greatly improved the "problem". The only ways to completely solve the "problem" involve $$$ and complexity, like pressured bladder, etc. Not only would this be expensive, but comes with it's own set of problems. How would you add fuel, vent the highly pressurized vapor at the station, change every pump/filler so they will push fuel in at a higher pressure? Then what would you do with the "old cars", make everyone upgrade? You park this new rig on the garage, it develops a leak and pressurization system quickly pushes all of the fuel out on the floor, some don't like that idea? No easy answer, my plan is to enjoy my rig, even with it's slight deficiencies, in other words, don't sweat the little things that I cant change?

 

[Tyler93]

[QUOTE I have been dreaming of a 6.1 HEMI conversion (425 horse) and now I have an excuse.......[/QUOTE]

And the 1FZ will go in the challenger? I've always thought the straight 6 deserved a 6 speed.
Start a new thread with the build....

 

[cruiserdan]

I just threw up in my mouth a little....