The best brake fluid (1 Viewer)

[2001LC]

Which brake fluid is best:

With my old fluid (10 years old factory installed) looking so good I'd like to have the same apperance in the furture, if I was to allow that much time to pass.

But I'm confused with the different brake fluids, I read somewhere: that synthetic is damaging brake systems and should not be used, I believe the concern was with causeing leaks. Elsewhere in ih8mud I read: "that all brake fluids are synthetic", elsewhere I've heard all brake fluids are the same, just different branding & marketing.

? Who can shed some light on the differeance if any with Brake Fluid?

And

?? Which fluid is best for our series 100's??

Edited 10-28-10 See post #17: All Bake fluid's are not equal, and may cause seal failure:

 

[pman]

All brake fluid is technically synthetic, since they are mineral based. When a manufacturer says that their fluid is "synthetic" it means it is silicone based instead of mineral. I would go with whatever it came with from the factory if its lasted that long and looks as good as you say it does. However, DOT5.1 is an improvement over DOT3 and DOT4 and if you can go with that, it might be worth considering. I think fluid from and reputable should be good. Which is best? Everyone will probably have a different answer.

EDIT:
Did a little quick research, Toyota's Dakar rig is sponsored by Motul, most of the teams sponsors are suppliers to Toyota, so thats probably the brand that is in the LC from the factory. Motul RBF600 is pretty sweet stuff

 

[jwagner]

i hate to disagree with the post above but...
-the simlest way to think of brake fluid is that the higher the DOT # the higher the temp, and newer the standard.
(note: this is very simplistic and vauge, and probably doesnt take into account everything.)
think of it as dot 4 is the newer version of dot 3. made for newer systems (types of materials) and has a higher dry and wet boiling point.
-dry is the temp brake fluid boils when new. with a moister content of less that whatever percent. and wet is when the moister content is above a certain percent...used. as brake fluid absorbs moister.
-dot 5, and 5.1 (i belive) are both silicone based and are NOT compatible with other systems, w/o a complete and thurough flush. even still leaks can occur as the system was not designed for it.
-unless you have a problem with your brakes boiling there is no reason to "upgrade". as the life of all fluid is about the same. (e.g. going from dot 3 to 4 will give you say a 100 deg higher boiling point) something like a motol 600 means it goes up to around 600 deg dry before it boils, so unless your gonna circle track your hundy its a waste of money...imo.
-i constantly tow my race car and trailer ~5000lbs and have never boiled the fluid. toyota would be nuts to advertise a towing capacity of x amount and not provide the proper fluid.
-if you really want to "upgrade" for whatever reason DOT 4 should be plenty sufficient. ive used castrol gt lma dot 4 in the race car and like it. its cheap, and you dont have to worry about fluid incompatibility. imo even thats a waste. brake fluid is held to a pretty high standard. even the cheap dot 3 (or whatever) still has to meet temp standards.
-google BITOG and read the brake fluid sec.

 

[jwagner]

dot 3 is stock in the 2000 fsm. rbf600 is 14.99 (on sale)for .5l so youd need a few. its also red.
-sorry about the typos.

 

[uHu]

DOT 5.0 is silicone - DOT 5.1 is not.

5.1 is compatible with 3 and 4; and, around here, is the only thing the toyota dealer deals.

5.1 might be the best all-round for most of us, but it's not like higher dot is always better for any application. There are dot 3 fluids that can take higher temps than stndrd 5.1.

And then there is this thing about moisture. There will always appear some moisture somewhere in the system. What is the best then - with 5.0 the water stays separate from the brake fluid and can freeze, or cause corrosion. Then different types of 3, 4 & 5.1 will absorb water at different rates, which alters the quality (eg boiling point) at different rates.

The best fluid could be the one that changes the most when absorbing water, so that you would have to change it monthly, or after each race if that's you game. So maybe that's not the best for most of us after all.

Compromises, compromises.

 

[2001LC]

Thank all of you for stopping by:

All brake fluid is technically synthetic, since they are mineral based.
EDIT:
Did a little quick research, Toyota's Dakar rig is sponsored by Motul, most of the teams sponsors are suppliers to Toyota, so thats probably the brand that is in the LC from the factory. Motul RBF600 is pretty sweet stuff

This is what I've heard with DOT 5 being silicone based. I for one have been confused by the marketing use of the word synthetic brake fluid.

Nice research on the DaKar w/Motul.

ive used castrol gt lma dot 4 in the race car and like it. its cheap, and you dont have to worry about fluid incompatibility. imo even thats a waste. brake fluid is held to a pretty high standard. even the cheap dot 3 (or whatever) still has to meet temp standards.
-google BITOG and read the brake fluid sec.

Glad you like the Castrol. I put the Castrol synthetic LMA in a used Chev Van, I based-lined. Subsequently I read in a web page form a brake pad supplier: "don't use synthetic (I wonder if they meant silicone based) or it may cause leaks". This concerned me, but no leaks or problems as yet, but it's only been in for 6 months and 2,000 miles.

Thank for the BITOG suggestion, I'm rooting around in their now.

dot 3 is stock in the 2000 fsm. rbf600 is 14.99 (on sale)for .5l so youd need a few. its also red.
-sorry about the typos.

Thanks for the heads up on the DOT 3 and the cost on DOT 5.1.

DOT 5.0 is silicone - DOT 5.1 is not.

5.1 is compatible with 3 and 4; and, around here, is the only thing the toyota dealer deals.

5.1 might be the best all-round for most of us, but it's not like higher dot is always better for any application. There are dot 3 fluids that can take higher temps than stndrd 5.1.

And then there is this thing about moisture. There will always appear some moisture somewhere in the system. What is the best then - with 5.0 the water stays separate from the brake fluid and can freeze, or cause corrosion. Then different types of 3, 4 & 5.1 will absorb water at different rates, which alters the quality (eg boiling point) at different rates.

The best fluid could be the one that changes the most when absorbing water, so that you would have to change it monthly, or after each race if that's you game. So maybe that's not the best for most of us after all.

Compromises, compromises.

uHu , Thank you for stopping in and posting. uHu,You really seem have a handle on this subject and are a very comprehensive and talented writer.

?? Let me ask you and any others that may wish to respond: What, if any, concern are their when choosing a brake fluid with the ability to protect and condition the seal and which brand is best when considering the seals (rubber)?

Since my brake system's old fluid was like new with no leaks, I feel that the brand used was very compatible with the seals and this protecting of the rubber is my biggest concern. No leaks is law in Japan, which would keep Japaneses Auto makers on their toes to match fluids and rubber very closely.

____________________________Of Interest________________

Toyota has been having a lot of recall issue since about 2005, blaming the fluid maybe a smoke screen maybe not. Below is from a forum in BITOG:


[Both Toyota and Honda recently announced recalls regarding brake fluid leaks.
Toyota, Honda launch recalls over brake fluid leaks - USATODAY.com

"..............But this recall was unusual in that both automakers said the problem wouldn't occur if owners had simply followed automakers' recommendations to use only their branded brake fluid.

In its filing with U.S. regulators, Toyota said its brake fluids contain polymers that act as lubricants. If the wrong kind of brake fluid is added, a rubber seal in the brake master cylinder can dry out and curl, causing the leak.............."

".................Toyota has since revised the master-cylinder design so that it holds up to different types of brake fluid."]


A Note:
I feel the series 100 is one of the best engineered and built vehicle in it's price range, ever built. I like OEM parts as they consistently meet with spec (they fit), that said; Toyota parts, filters and fluids like all auto manufactures tend to use suppliers they favor, and a great deal of emphasis (favor) when choosing a supplier is with the lowest bidder. The point being; the factory installed fluid in my 2001 series 100 did it's job, but what is on the parts counter at the dealer today may or may not give the same protection.

 

[2001LC]

What, if any, concern are their when choosing a brake fluid with the ability to protect and condition the seal and which brand is best when considering the seals (rubber)?


____________________________Of Interest________________

[Both Toyota and Honda recently announced recalls regarding brake fluid leaks.
Toyota, Honda launch recalls over brake fluid leaks - USATODAY.com

"..............But this recall was unusual in that both automakers said the problem wouldn't occur if owners had simply followed automakers' recommendations to use only their branded brake fluid.

In its filing with U.S. regulators, Toyota said its brake fluids contain polymers that act as lubricants. If the wrong kind of brake fluid is added, a rubber seal in the brake master cylinder can dry out and curl, causing the leak.............."

".................Toyota has since revised the master-cylinder design so that it holds up to different types of brake fluid."]

 

[cary]

The best brake fluid is the one that you flush at least once every two years. The wet boiling point of the best Dot 5.1 fluid is less than minimum dry boiling point for a Dot 3 fluid.

I have always used ATE fluid, alternating between the superblue and the standard. The reason is that when you alternate you can tell when the fresh fluid gets flushed through. You can spend a lot on Motul or other fluids, but they don't last any longer, just have a higher boiling point when fresh. For the money, you can't beat Castrol LMA which is widely available, inexpensive, and has a 511f boiling point.

 

[CappyKD]

Do some research on ATE Super Blue. Here is a quote from Tirerack about it.

"ATE Super Blue Racing High Performance Brake Fluid is designed to excel within the extreme demands made on a race vehicle and exceeds all DOT4 standards. It is compatible with and will mix well with most DOT3, DOT4, or DOT 5.1 fluids.

The formula offers a minimal drop in boiling point resulting in a long-lasting fluid that may not need to be changed for up to 3 years under normal highway driving conditions. Products with a lower wet boiling point have to be replaced considerably more often (e.g., DOT3 products should be replaced annually). The overall high dry and wet boiling points make this fluid an excellent choice for street driven vehicles, too, where brake fluid is flushed less frequently than that in race-driven vehicles.

Features/Benefits of ATE Super Blue Racing Brake Fluid:

Blue tint of fluid makes bleeding brakes easier
Ideal for race use, excellent choice for street driven vehicles, too
Boiling point minimum: 536 degrees F
Wet boiling point minimum: 388 degrees F
Viscosity at -104 degrees F: max 1,400 mm 2/5
Designed to last up to 3 years under normal highway driving conditions
To maintain the functional reliability of brake systems, brake fluid must be changed according to the specifications of the vehicle manufacturer (quality and change interval). In race/track applications, it becomes even more critical that the brake fluid is routinely changed to maintain optimum performance.

For race applications, vehicle owners will often alternate fluid flushes between ATE Super Blue Racing Brake Fluid and ATE TYP 200 Amber Brake Fluid. The identical specifications of the fluid and color difference make it easy to know when the old fluid is completely flushed out of the system."

I have run this before in my Civic SI with better results than stock fluid.

Kirk

 

[OregonLC]

The alternating color is a great idea. Thanks for the post.

 

[NMuzj100]

Lots of good stuff here ...


StopTech Brake Fluid White Paper

 

[2001LC]

Lots of good stuff here ...


StopTech Brake Fluid White Paper

Thanks, this has some great stuff in it, that rings authoritative. One part answered my biggest concerning: the effect on the seals.

I took the liberty, an cut and pasted a couple of paragraphs below:

As a trailing note on the DOT ratings, if your car was designed for a particular type of fluid (especially prior to the development of DOT 4 fluids), you should make every attempt to stick with that fluid! For example, if your car was delivered with DOT 3 fluid, the internal components of the system (seals, brake hoses, and fittings for example) were specifically designed and tested for compatibility with DOT 3. Because DOT 4 fluids contain a different chemical composition, the system may not necessarily react in a positive fashion to the borate esters floating around in the mix.
In other cases, just the difference in viscosity of the two different fluids may cause the seals to wear at different rates. What starts as an annoying squeak might eventually become a torn seal or worse. The examples could go on and on, but the message here is this: it’s fine to upgrade from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 3 fluid B, but you should think twice (maybe even three times) before switching from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 4 fluid of any sort.
That said, when dealing with modern hydraulic braking systems a numerically higher DOT rating is typically considered to be compatible with a lower DOT rating (except for DOT 5, of course). Unfortunately, this same generality just isn’t true for most older hydraulic system materials.

 

[jwagner]

yes.
-my concern is that.....imo.......the fluid itself is not going to have an effect on the system like some would think. i have never boiled the fliud in any vehicle ive owned...cept the race car. if you replace the old fluid with new you should take a small amount of softness out of the pedal and will gain better pedal control (they wont lock up as easily)...even though we have abs. in other words say you do go to a 5.1. the only difference youll notice will be the new fluid difference, not the "upgade". the likleyhood youll boil your fluid is slim to none even if its ancient. so going to a possibly incompatilbe fluid would only net gains of.....possible problems.
-heres an example i cited earlier...my "race car"...87 celica gt-s. basically stock. all new brake components. 150hp @ 2200lbs. road course. no abs. the car is run flat out. either fully on the gas or fully on the brakes (as close to lock up as possible). dot3 (recomended....401 f dry) even brand new will make about 6 turns and the pedal hits the floor. so i need higher temp fluid...dot 4 lma(509 f dry). i can now make about 10 laps before the pedal hits the floor on a fresh flush. once burned it boils sooner and sooner. (note: its an 87 celica so incompatibilty isnt by biggest concern as its thuroghly inspected before/after each race.) next ill try the super blue (536 f dry) hopefully that will cure it. after that fluid price increases dramaticlly. i guess my point bieng is i would only go outside manufacturer spec if im causing a condition that can only be resolved by "upgrading"

--a very iteresting thread btw

 

[2001LC]

Good luck jwagher with the brakes on the race car. Hopefully super blue will do the trick, the other choices may get expensive. Or you could just go faster (no braking) ..........LOL

 

[jwagner]

yeah im slowly upping it till i find one that works. starts getting super expensive after that.
-thanks!

 

[cary]

yeah im slowly upping it till i find one that works. starts getting super expensive after that.
-thanks!

Are you allowed to duct the brakes in the class you are running? With the older BMW's ducting helped tremendously in keeping boiling down.

Where are you running at? SIR? PIR?

 

[2001LC]

All Bake fluid's are not equal, and may cause seal failure:

Stop by my local Toyota Dealer today, to picking up some parts. While there I spoke with the shop foreman (one of the largest shop in Denver), who has been very helpfully to me over the years. I asked him if the DOT 3 at the parts counter was the same as any other around town, like Gunk. He said he thought so until last week, when the below TBS came out. This was a surprise to my buddy at the parts counter as well. Although this recall does not include Series 100, it is still of concern. Some will say Toyota is just covering their butt, by not blaming the seal yet replacing it for free, as goodwill. But the shops are taking this as gospel, as they have seen many failure for incompatible fluids (not just brake fluid) being installed or mixed.

Totoya DOT 3 can reads: Polyakylene Glycol Ethere.
Gunk reads: Contains polyglycol ethere and polyglycols. (under caution)
Castrol GT LMA reads: glycol ethere. (under caution)

__________________________________________________________

Wayne Hutchinson / TMS Toyota Customer Services
Product Quality and Service Support, Quality Compliance
October 21, 2010
Approved By: Bob Waltz
To: All Toyota Dealers
From: Toyota Customer Services

Safety Recall A0M – Preliminary Notice
2005 through 2006 Model Year Avalon Vehicles and
2004 through 2006 Model Year Highlander (Non Hybrid) Vehicles
Rubber Seal (Brake Master Cylinder Cup Replacement)

******URGENT******​

On October 21, 2010, Toyota filed a Defect Information Report (DIR) with the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration (NHTSA) informing the agency of our intent to conduct a voluntary Safety Recall on 2005 through
2006 Model Year Avalon Vehicles and 2004 through 2006 Model Year Highlander (Non Hybrid) Vehicles to
replace the Brake Master Cylinder Cup. This Safety Recall will also cover 2006 Lexus GS 300, IS 250, IS 350
and 2004 – 2006 Lexus RX 330.

Condition
• During vehicle assembly, Toyota uses brake fluids containing polymers that act as lubricants for certain
brake system components. If replacement brake fluid is used that does not contain such polymers, or
contain only small amounts, a part of the rubber seal (Brake Master Cylinder Cup) located at the rear of the
brake master cylinder may become dry, and the rubber seal may curl during movement of the piston. If this
occurs, a small amount of the brake fluid could slowly leak from the seal into the brake booster, resulting in
illumination of the brake warning lamp.
• If the vehicle continues to be operated in this condition, the brake pedal feel could change, and braking
performance could eventually begin to gradually degrade.
• Toyota original brake fluid which is applied at the manufacturing plant contains polymers and does not cause this phenomenon

 

[jwagner]

Are you allowed to duct the brakes in the class you are running? With the older BMW's ducting helped tremendously in keeping boiling down.

Where are you running at? SIR? PIR?

-i wish i could afford to run a "real" car at one of those tracks. for now....evergreen.. hornet class. so no ducting, has to stay stock. i did finish 2nd on the season!
-i really wish i could duct the rears as this is where i boil off.

-peagsusautoracing.com has a bunch of race fluid with side-by-sides on temps and fluid make-up.

 

[Jim_Chow]

Which brake fluid is best:

With my old fluid (10 years old factory installed) looking so good I'd like to have the same apperance in the furture, if I was to allow that much time to pass.

But I'm confused with the different brake fluids, I read somewhere: that synthetic is damaging brake systems and should not be used, I believe the concern was with causeing leaks. Elsewhere in ih8mud I read: "that all brake fluids are synthetic", elsewhere I've heard all brake fluids are the same, just different branding & marketing.

? Who can shed some light on the differeance if any with Brake Fluid?

And

?? Which fluid is best for our series 100's??

Edited 10-28-10 See post #17: All Bake fluid's are not equal, and may cause seal failure:

Yeah, I read that too. Luckily I switched to Toyota brand brake fluid a couple of years ago. Here's the story...

"Toyota USA's full explanation of the brake problem:


The Toyota genuine brake fluid used during vehicle assembly for vehicles sold in the United States contains polymers. The polymers act as lubricants for certain brake system components. If during vehicle maintenance, brake fluid is used that does not contain such polymers or only small amounts, a part of the internal rubber seal (brake master cylinder cup) located at the end of the brake master cylinder piston may become dry and may curl during movement of the piston. If this occurs, a small amount of the brake fluid could slowly leak from the brake master cylinder into the brake booster, resulting in illumination of the brake warning lamp.

If the brake warning lamp has illuminated and the vehicle continues to be operated without refilling the master cylinder brake fluid reservoir, the driver will begin to notice a spongy or soft brake pedal feel and braking performance may gradually decline.

Owners of the involved vehicles will be notified by first class mail beginning in early November 2010. Toyota and Lexus dealers will replace the brake master cylinder cup with a newly designed one at no charge to the vehicle owners.

Detailed information and answers to questions are available to customers at Toyota Recall Information – 2009-2010 Toyota Recall List or Lexus Recall Information and the Toyota Customer Experience Center at 1-800-331-4331 or Lexus Customer Satisfaction at 1-800-25 LEXUS or 1-800-255-3987.

"

 

[2001LC]

Yeah, I read that too. Luckily I switched to Toyota brand brake fluid a couple of years ago. Here's the story...

"Toyota USA's full explanation of the brake problem:

..."

Hi Jim, thanks for stopping by.

Did you DIY or have a shop flush for you?

Anybody have any idea on what polymers mixture is in the Toyota DOT 3 fluid and have they made any change since 2000 to date?Also who makes it for them?