Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser

[TeCKis300]

The truck is totally stock except for a Victory4x4 gas tank skid. I have 315/70's sitting in the garage but have not mounted them up yet.

Gotcha. I don't know that I've ever heard any firsthand data from 2016+ model year owners and you're the first. Perhaps with the different transmission and updates, that the running parameters are just different. It still looks like later model years have a giant tranny cooler unlike the updated Tundra where they deleted the cooler.

The data I see is pretty consistent with what is reported from @linuxgod and others that own pre-2016 models. It'd be interesting if any others with 2016+ could weigh in so we can better characterize if what you're seeing is in the norm or not.

 

[skrypj]

Gotcha. I don't know that I've ever heard any firsthand data from 2016+ model year owners and you're the first. Perhaps with the different transmission and updates, that the running parameters are just different. It still looks like later model years have a giant tranny cooler unlike the updated Tundra where they deleted the cooler.

The data I see is pretty consistent with what is reported from @linuxgod and others that own pre-2016 models. It'd be interesting if any others with 2016+ could weigh in so we can better characterize if what you're seeing is in the norm or not.

It definitely has an external air cooler for the transmission in a separate duct to the right side of the radiator.

 

[LX Cruiser]

You could probably help the cause by swapping to Lithium batteries and running them in the rear of the trailer. That would probably unload a couple hundred lbs from the tongue.

Those 2024 specs are much more than the spec sheet says for mine. The GW is a LOT higher too, which is odd.

A couple years ago I came in at 920# TW, fully loaded, despite the spec sheet saying it was around 700#.

I've since moved my battery to Lithium and put it under the fridge. There are some other things you can do which will help (or at least change the distribution):

• You could put the spare underneath the rear of the trailer instead of the tongue. It would probably require some engineering/welding to mount it.
• Loading stuff in the storage area under the bunks will remove weight from the tongue. I typically put my cooler and firewood back there when we don't have bikes with us.
• Water will affect TW too. Fresh water sits in front of the axles, whereas gray I believe sits above them and black is behind.
• Try to shift other heavier stuff inside closer to the axle. i.e. if you have pots and pans in the forward dinette drawer maybe move those to the one closer to the axle.

Exactly what I was thinking. If there’s a camper out there you can load up in the rear without sacrificing stability, it’s the one with 18% unloaded tongue weight.
Bikes on the back and relocating the spare tire and batteries would help significantly I'm sure.

@linuxgod your fully loaded tongue weight is only 30lb heavier than the listed spec for the '24 unloaded tongue weight.

 

[linuxgod]

Partially their numbers were just wrong of course. Before I moved the battery mine was 785# at the tongue "dry" weight. (note that Lance includes propane, battery, A/C, and other accessories as part of their dry weight, unlike many other manufacturers)

 

[Artie]

I’m beginning to contemplate moving up to stiffer springs and figured this would be a good thread to pose this question, even though its suspension related 75% of my miles have my camper in tow.

Some back story: currently I’m running OME 2722’s with BP51’s, and bags. Truck is built with both bumpers and 40 gallon LRA. Based on the Cat scale I’ve ran as much as 5k lbs on the rear axle with my camper in tow. I’m 20k miles into my current configuration.

Fast forward to today at the alignment shop discussing steering wheel feedback and caster angles with the owner. Idk if the 2722’s are just getting tired but I’ve been getting a lot of feed back in the steering wheel since my last alignment back in October. At that alignment my caster was moved from 3.0 to 2.6 along with fixing an existing toe issue which prompted the alignment. All this was done to “square up the front end” as out by the tech. Since then the steering wheel has danced around at highways speeds when driving over bridge transitions or sometimes from seams in the asphalt or pavement.

Discussing all this with the shop owner (shop is known in my area for their Toyota builds and was recommended by a few mud guys so it’s not just a run of the mill alignment guy) and also having some slight front tire cupping pointed out led the convo into rear springs and the front end lifting from suspension sag in the rear. I do run bags in the back which help keep the truck level but the overall spring discussion does make sense to my shade tree mechanic brain.

All this to put forward the question about springs… looking at moving from my 2722’s to 2723’s. Could this help my situation or should I stay or go higher? What are yall with built out heavy cruisers doing? We tow to camp then will drive and do trials so I don’t want to turn my truck into a tow rig then get beat up running alpine loop. I know I need to make sacrifices somewhere, just looking for the happy medium while solving this steering wheel feedback thing.

 

[linuxgod]

I’m beginning to contemplate moving up to stiffer springs and figured this would be a good thread to pose this question, even though its suspension related 75% of my miles have my camper in tow.

Some back story: currently I’m running OME 2722’s with BP51’s, and bags. Truck is built with both bumpers and 40 gallon LRA. Based on the Cat scale I’ve ran as much as 5k lbs on the rear axle with my camper in tow. I’m 20k miles into my current configuration.

Fast forward to today at the alignment shop discussing steering wheel feedback and caster angles with the owner. Idk if the 2722’s are just getting tired but I’ve been getting a lot of feed back in the steering wheel since my last alignment back in October. At that alignment my caster was moved from 3.0 to 2.6 along with fixing an existing toe issue which prompted the alignment. All this was done to “square up the front end” as out by the tech. Since then the steering wheel has danced around at highways speeds when driving over bridge transitions or sometimes from seams in the asphalt or pavement.

Discussing all this with the shop owner (shop is known in my area for their Toyota builds and was recommended by a few mud guys so it’s not just a run of the mill alignment guy) and also having some slight front tire cupping pointed out led the convo into rear springs and the front end lifting from suspension sag in the rear. I do run bags in the back which help keep the truck level but the overall spring discussion does make sense to my shade tree mechanic brain.

All this to put forward the question about springs… looking at moving from my 2722’s to 2723’s. Could this help my situation or should I stay or go higher? What are yall with built out heavy cruisers doing? We tow to camp then will drive and do trials so I don’t want to turn my truck into a tow rig then get beat up running alpine loop. I know I need to make sacrifices somewhere, just looking for the happy medium while solving this steering wheel feedback thing.

2721s are progressive, right? If you don’t need 2723 normally you might look at those since they are a 270/340# progressive which should help with towing. Airbags might also help but I’d start with a progressive spring.

Ignore what the Toyota alignment says… Caster should be more like 3.5* on a lifted truck. Camber should be 0 or maybe a tad negative. When you add weight to the rear the front end lifts… camber increases (more positive) and caster decreases.

 

[Artie]

2721s are progressive, right? If you don’t need 2723 normally you might look at those since they are a 270/340# progressive which should help with towing. Airbags might also help but I’d start with a progressive spring.

Ignore what the Toyota alignment says… Caster should be more like 3.5* on a lifted truck. Camber should be 0 or maybe a tad negative. When you add weight to the rear the front end lifts… camber increases (more positive) and caster decreases.

Thanks for your input.


already have the bags so that base is covered.

I was wanting higher caster but apparently all mine would take was 3.3 on drivers and 3 on passenger. I’m a novice on suspension geometry but I’m consuming as much as I can now to get a good handle on this moving forward. I’ve attached the latest numbers below.

Are there drawbacks on the progressive springs? I don’t daily this truck, its strictly one camp/adventure vehicle so I’m aiming for that target over making it comfortable to daily.

 

[linuxgod]

Caster depends on your UCAs. My SPCs have run 4 degree or more.

I don’t think there’s a downside to progressive springs but I don’t run them. I have Ironman medium duty which are perfect for my setup without towing though are a bit soft for towing.

Caster should be higher on the passengers side or you’ll pull right. Camber is ok but I’d try to run closer to 0.0.

Make sure your have enough pressure in your tires for the weight. If you have >5k# on the axle the factory pressures are insufficient and your tires will flex too much.

 

[Artie]

Caster depends on your UCAs. My SPCs have run 4 degree or more.

I don’t think there’s a downside to progressive springs but I don’t run them. I have Ironman medium duty which are perfect for my setup without towing though are a bit soft for towing.

Caster should be higher on the passengers side or you’ll pull right. Camber is ok but I’d try to run closer to 0.0.

Make sure your have enough pressure in your tires for the weight. If you have >5k# on the axle the factory pressures are insufficient and your tires will flex too much.

Interesting input.

I also have the SPC UCA’s so I’m curious about that “can’t add more caster” comment.

As for tire pressures, thanks for bringing this up as a safety thing. I run 45 in the rear and 40 in the front. I weighed front and rear and did the math on the tire max weight/psi to come up with those pressures.

I need to find a good shop close to me. This one is 1.5 hrs away which makes going back and forth to get that caster in a pain.

 

[TeCKis300]

I’m beginning to contemplate moving up to stiffer springs and figured this would be a good thread to pose this question, even though its suspension related 75% of my miles have my camper in tow.

Some back story: currently I’m running OME 2722’s with BP51’s, and bags. Truck is built with both bumpers and 40 gallon LRA. Based on the Cat scale I’ve ran as much as 5k lbs on the rear axle with my camper in tow. I’m 20k miles into my current configuration.

Fast forward to today at the alignment shop discussing steering wheel feedback and caster angles with the owner. Idk if the 2722’s are just getting tired but I’ve been getting a lot of feed back in the steering wheel since my last alignment back in October. At that alignment my caster was moved from 3.0 to 2.6 along with fixing an existing toe issue which prompted the alignment. All this was done to “square up the front end” as out by the tech. Since then the steering wheel has danced around at highways speeds when driving over bridge transitions or sometimes from seams in the asphalt or pavement.

Discussing all this with the shop owner (shop is known in my area for their Toyota builds and was recommended by a few mud guys so it’s not just a run of the mill alignment guy) and also having some slight front tire cupping pointed out led the convo into rear springs and the front end lifting from suspension sag in the rear. I do run bags in the back which help keep the truck level but the overall spring discussion does make sense to my shade tree mechanic brain.

All this to put forward the question about springs… looking at moving from my 2722’s to 2723’s. Could this help my situation or should I stay or go higher? What are yall with built out heavy cruisers doing? We tow to camp then will drive and do trials so I don’t want to turn my truck into a tow rig then get beat up running alpine loop. I know I need to make sacrifices somewhere, just looking for the happy medium while solving this steering wheel feedback thing.

It's not exactly clear that heavier springs are going to solve your issues. There's multiple contributors to your symptoms and in combination, it's creating the drivability issues. Part of the challenge with lifts is that they put the suspension geometry outside of optimal where toe steer is minimized. That is as the suspension is loaded and changes ride height, along with suspension cycling over bumps, that it creates undesirable alignment changes that affect straight ahead and stability.

Reason why I say rear springs may not fix things is that it might just further exacerbate rear axle toe steer further. Some of the toe steer you're experiencing now is also likely contributed by the rear axle. The lift create a thrust angle on the rear axle (which the alignment will show). This thrust angle is changing as the rear suspension cycles. Remind me how much lift you have all around? If you don't already have one, consider a panhard correction bracket.

You might also try to tighten up compression and rebound damping a click. This will help control body motions and reduce suspension cycling which in turn reduces toe steer.

 

[Artie]

It's not exactly clear that heavier springs are going to solve your issues. There's multiple contributors to your symptoms and in combination, it's creating the drivability issues. Part of the challenge with lifts is that they put the suspension geometry outside of optimal where toe steer is minimized. That is as the suspension is loaded and changes ride height, along with suspension cycling over bumps, that it creates undesirable alignment changes that affect straight ahead and stability.

Reason why I say rear springs may not fix things is that it might just further exacerbate rear axle toe steer further. Some of the toe steer you're experiencing now is also likely contributed by the rear axle. The lift create a thrust angle on the rear axle (which the alignment will show). This thrust angle is changing as the rear suspension cycles. Remind me how much lift you have all around? If you don't already have one, consider a panhard correction bracket.

You might also try to tighten up compression and rebound damping a click. This will help control body motions and reduce suspension cycling which in turn reduces toe steer.

Thanks for your expertise and input.

Lift is 2 inches and I have not done the panhard bracket.

I’m going to tow some this weekend or first of next week and will experiment With the damping.

Hopefully putting some caster back in has helped as this l started when it was dialed back last alignment. The trackbar bracket seems like something I should have so I’m looking into that now.

 

[linuxgod]

Interesting input.

I also have the SPC UCA’s so I’m curious about that “can’t add more caster” comment.

As for tire pressures, thanks for bringing this up as a safety thing. I run 45 in the rear and 40 in the front. I weighed front and rear and did the math on the tire max weight/psi to come up with those pressures.

I need to find a good shop close to me. This one is 1.5 hrs away which makes going back and forth to get that caster in a pain.

They probably can’t get more caster with your current UCA ball joint setting. That’s possible. If they crack the nut and rotate it one position then retighten to 150# they will add +1 deg of caster. Most shops don’t even know there is an upper adjustment. If you need the instructions let me know and I can post them.

BTW I’ve run different pressures in my tires front and rear (36/45) but keep in mind doing so creates a small amount of continuous friction in the transfer case because you’re essentially running different tire size.

 

[gaijin]

BTW I’ve run different pressures in my tires front and rear (36/45) but keep in mind doing so creates a small amount of continuous friction in the transfer case because you’re essentially running different tire size.

Even at different tire pressures, the circumference of the tire remains the same. Since the circumference is the same, the RPM (Revolutions Per Mile) remains the same, so should not be an issue.

HTH

 

[linuxgod]

Even at different tire pressures, the circumference of the tire remains the same. Since the circumference is the same, the RPM (Revolutions Per Mile) remains the same, so should not be an issue.

HTH

I don’t believe that’s true. To my knowledge, cheaper (and older) TPMS systems determine if tire pressure is low by measuring wheel speed, not pressure. If they measure one wheel continuously spinning slower they infer there is an issue and set off the light. So there must be a small difference in diameter or else using wheel speed differences wouldn’t work. Now whether that difference matters or whether there’s a difference after you get to ~30psi I can’t say.

 

[TeCKis300]

Hopefully putting some caster back in has helped as this l started when it was dialed back last alignment. The trackbar bracket seems like something I should have so I’m looking into that now.

Those steps should help a lot. Along with upping the damping to better control body motions. There's been a general theme even outside of towing where coilovers seem to break in or weaken after ~20k, allowing for more body motions. Where front and rear toe steer becomes more symptomatic. I do think that has a lot to do with what you're experiencing as well.

I think you run a larger tire, and @linuxgod is right they're not using the adjustability within the SPCs for caster. Depending on your clearance to the body mount, note that adjusting caster via the UCA will bring the tire clearance closer there.

Even at different tire pressures, the circumference of the tire remains the same. Since the circumference is the same, the RPM (Revolutions Per Mile) remains the same, so should not be an issue.

BTW I’ve run different pressures in my tires front and rear (36/45) but keep in mind doing so creates a small amount of continuous friction in the transfer case because you’re essentially running different tire size.

While in concept that might be true, in towing, there is so much more load on and compressing the rear tires that their effective rolling diameter might be closer with staggered inflation. That's why we're increasing pressures commensurate with loads.

 

[Artie]

So much good info, I think I have a good path to follow now.

@TeCKis300 I ordered the DrKDSS bolt on track bar bracket. I found the mud thread on these and a lot of the symptoms sound familiar. It may not solve everything but I do believe this is something to address.

@linuxgod I tracked down the UCA instructions, thanks for pointing me in this direction. Also, the tire diameter had not even crossed my mind but It makes sense having seen this done on race cars to change handling characteristics. I wonder what the tolerance on this is, the pressures change while driving even without towing, more so with a load from heat build up in the rear tires. Looks like this may be my bedtime rabbit hole tonight.

I think I have a lead on an alignment shop closer to me who is open to customer feedback. I’m going to install the track bar bracket and tow around some to see how it behaves. Then, if needed, I’ll take it into this new shops and have a look. Getting the caster the same as suggested by @linuxgod and tighten up the shocks like @TeCKis300 suggested. After 20k on this set up and towing well more than half of those miles it makes sense that thing break in and wear.

I appreciate all this feed back and will report back. We have our annual cross country trip in 5 weeks so I’ll be addressing these and some other little maintenance items.

 

[terrapin]

I had to do a panic stop from 60+ MPH the other day while towing my 6000 lb Airstream. I'm pleased to say that my LX acted with complete composure, although my trailer brakes chirped briefly. The vehicle performed perfectly, no pucker involved. I am using a RedArc Brake Controller and a well dialed-in WD hitch which certainly helped.

 

[skrypj]

I had to do a panic stop from 60+ MPH the other day while towing my 6000 lb Airstream. I'm pleased to say that my LX acted with complete composure, although my trailer brakes chirped briefly. The vehicle performed perfectly, no pucker involved. I am using a RedArc Brake Controller and a well dialed-in WD hitch which certainly helped.

I also had to do a panic stop coming home from San Diego and it was totally stable. Some guy in the right lane decided to just dead stop on the freeway without pulling off into the shoulder in a 75mph zone.

 

[2021 LC200]

I had to do a panic stop from 60+ MPH the other day while towing my 6000 lb Airstream. I'm pleased to say that my LX acted with complete composure, although my trailer brakes chirped briefly. The vehicle performed perfectly, no pucker involved. I am using a RedArc Brake Controller and a well dialed-in WD hitch which certainly helped.

Great to hear. This video from our Aussie friends has given me the confidence you can break pretty much flat out. Interesting how the 200 series with a trailer dives less (be it the LX with AHC will do less by design) which should improve rear axle braking action. Obviously trailer (aka caravan) weight and brake assist by the same plays a role.

 

[TeCKis300]

Exactly what I was thinking. If there’s a camper out there you can load up in the rear without sacrificing stability, it’s the one with 18% unloaded tongue weight.
Bikes on the back and relocating the spare tire and batteries would help significantly I'm sure.

@linuxgod your fully loaded tongue weight is only 30lb heavier than the listed spec for the '24 unloaded tongue weight.

I agree that such a trailer would have more margin to handling some weight at the rear.

There are limitations to this when we're talking about longer and larger trailers. One major variable in a scientific study on sway is the angular momentum of yaw for various trailers. Intuitively, larger trailers can create more yaw / lateral force. The momentum and force of trailer yaw can't exceed what the tow vehicle can control. Putting weight at the rear of a trailer can further amplify these forces. Then the large slab sides of a trailer in yaw at speed can catch some serious wind that translates that to yaw forces. In the wrong conditions, the start of sway can really get amplified with seemingly small factors. Compounded with speed.

Just saying it's always best to load heavy items over the trailer axles. And generally don't want to play the game countering tongue weight with more weight at the rear because that increases the moment of yaw. If tongue weight is too high (not necessarily a bad thing if the TV can handle it), best to lighten the tongue rather than counter at the rear.

Even as we stay within tongue weights and payload, these other criteria and thresholds can bite too.