The Great ONSC Gun Thread

[erymer]

First of....Mike and John I can appreciate you opinions whether they agree with mine or not. Your views are formed by your life experiences. Since I was not there for them I cannot say those views are right or wrong. I can only give my opinion based on mine.

I have to assume by the term assault weapon you are talking about Ak's and the AR platform. You asked about an example when one was used for good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-q2zHIovOE
I've seen and read more but I'm at work so cannot do a detailed search for more.

The biggest issue I have with the whole conversation is how people define assault weapon. A lot of the legislature I've see classify it as a shoulder mounted semi-auto with a capacity of more than 5 rounds. I have shotguns and 22's that would fall into that category and be included in such a ban.
Perfect example is the Marlin model 60. This would be an assault weapon according to those laws.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...0ep9YgJ_-JggCV46kwXB1MRd7YaOBzq2f-j3cGmXcbuRD

You are going to get various opinions in here. A lot of us are military vets and trained on the AR platform. Yes even us Air Force guys. lol. It is an amazingly versatile firearm with many uses. It is an excellent long range gun when chambered in the 308 or 6.5. If you have watching any hunting video regarding the feral hog issue you will see immediately why it is the single best weapon to use. Not to mention it's use in the varmit hunting community. The 223 round is pretty inexpensive and as a recreational shooter it is a fantastic gun to take to the range. I agree with Some others who have mentioned it that items like the 50 and 100 rnd drums have no use in most civilian circles.

The recent shootings are without a doubt some of the most terrible things I've ever seen. But more gun legislature is not the cure. I think most of the desire you see to obtain one now has more to do with possible upcoming changes to the gun laws. That doesn't really make it insensitive. Most of us have probably had the desire to buy one for recreational shooting before any of this happened. Regardless of who you voted for I think we all know that our current CIC is not pro gun (except when it comes to Eric Holder). Sorry I could not resist that one. Just look at his home state of Illinois. Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the country and their violent crime rate is one off the tops in the nation. More laws do not equal less crime.

But that is getting slightly away from the point of your post. You were specifically mentioning the "assault weapon" so I'll add this. The purpose of the 2nd amendment is to provide the citizen the ability to protect themselves and their rights from government oppression. Extreme example.....Could you imagine if there was a government in place/takeover and they started with taking away all firearms and then causing harm to the people. Do you think the citizens could protect themselves and their families with a simple 22?
In the aftermath of a disaster such as Katrina when the looting and violence started. Would you rather protect yourself and your family with a revolver? The first was an extreme example....the latter, no so much.

I guess what I am getting at (hopefully in an intelligent and nonabrasive or offensive manner) is that the AR platform has a viable use other than military purposes. The issue with an assault weapon ban is that once you open the door, how do you set the classification? The mainstream media and anti-gun politicians are targeting two specific style rifles and using scare tactics to sway people. They will show a tactical version of the gun and make it seem like that is what they all look like. I read something the other day that the #1 weapon used in violent crimes is not a gun but a baseball bat. We as a society cannot ban everything that some one uses to hurt another person. We have to address the root cause which is the person committing the crime. A person hell bent on inflicting harm will find a way to do so. If the CT shooter had not gotten his hands on those guns, who is to say he could not have taken a car and just waited in the parking lot till school was out and starting running over people? We as a country need to put a little focus back on mental health. Someone somewhere saw the signs from the shooter. The shooter from Virginia tech wrote some of the most violent and disturbing things I've ever read but the teachers and powers that be were powerless to do anything. God forbid they address it and wind up getting sued for infringing his artistic abilities. I'm not sure what the answer is, I just know it's not more gun laws.

Whew. I didn't expect that to be so long. I hope it came off well and didn't make me sound like an arse or a war monger. My heart aches for what happened in CT. I've hugged my kids a little longer each time this weekend. Tillman was asking what was going on on the TV. I never dreamed I would have to try to explain it to a 5 year old. Kids should not have to deal with anything that terrible. Every time I looked at them this weekend I wondered what it would be like if it was one of my kids and it brought me to tears each time.

I'm not trying to sway your opinion on the matter. I just wanted to give another perspective.

 

[erymer]

It is sad that so many people use this horrific time to use as fodder for the gun bedate....people should pay a bit more money and attention to helping those with mental illnesses...there is a good read " I am the mother of adam lanza" or to that effect...speaking of her own issues with a disturbed son and the lack of help for them....
I enjoy my guns and will fight to keep my rights .....but lets look a bit more at the WHY ....

that said who wants to go shooting?

thoroughly medicated...for your protection, lol
Shaun

Cannot agree more Shaun....

Here is the article he mentioned.

I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother
Liza Long
Three days before 20-year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year-old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

"I can wear these pants," he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

"They are navy blue," I told him. "Your school's dress code says black or khaki pants only."

"They told me I could wear these," he insisted. "You're a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!"

"You can't wear whatever pants you want to," I said, my tone affable, reasonable. "And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You're grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school."

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.
A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7- and 9-year-old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don't know what's wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He's been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood-altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it's impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district's most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can't function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30 to 1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, "Look, Mom, I'm really sorry. Can I have video games back today?"

"No way," I told him. "You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly."

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. "Then I'm going to kill myself," he said. "I'm going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself."

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

"Where are you taking me?" he said, suddenly worried. "Where are we going?"

"You know where we are going," I replied.

"No! You can't do that to me! You're sending me to hell! You're sending me straight to hell!"

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. "Call the police," I said. "Hurry."

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn't escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I'm still stronger than he is, but I won't be for much longer.

The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—"Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…"

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, "I need help."

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."

I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.

No one wants to send a 13-year-old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, "Something must be done."

I agree that something must be done. It's time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That's the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

 

[erymer]

I was having the same discussion with folks. Out in public, with your family, who is responsible to protect you and your family from harm? No police around. Do you get a concealed carry permit? Do you have a conceal carry permit?

I feel almost negligent for not carrying a weapon.

The post above are great.

This is exactly the reason I carry. I have the utmost respect for our LEO's. But the bottom line is they cannot be everywhere. I am not in it to be a hero. But I will protect my family with all the resources I have available until more help arrives. I'm trained and I practice to be prepared in the event something like this ever happens to me. The day I have to use my weapon against someone will undoubtedly be the worst day of my life. but I am willing to accept that to protect my family from harm.

This is kinda away from what John and Mike are talking about but if you look at most of the recent mass shootings....tell me what happened as soon as the shooters were engaged with forceful resistance? Most of them took their own lives. I have to wonder how some of these shootings might have turned out if just one armed and trained citizen had been there to fight back.

 

[uzj100]

Thanks for the response.

The media is so focused on guns. They need to focus on mental health and what to do for your loved ones that need assistance, no matter what the cost.

 

[mtweller]

That's some powerful chit right there Mr. Rymer. FWIW, I was at the Sheriff's office this morning filing for permit for a handgun. I have put off buying one for years - I've always had my shotguns ready to go ICE. But, after the President's use of language I am fearful I might not have that "right" much longer, so I will exercise it ASAP.

As sickening as this whole episode was, along with the others mentioned, I can't begin to fathom the additional suffering and pain caused had it been a machete or other less "humane" ending for these poor children and others. I use that word loosely, only because I draw a blank otherwise. I'm thoroughly convinced evil will find a way to exercise itself, and although I'm an advocate of revising the mental health awareness and treatment system, I just don't think these type of episodes will ever be fully stopped. I pray I am wrong.

R

 

[Yukon LX]

if you have a minute. Take the time to give it a read.


On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

 

[Burt88]

I have to say i am enjoying the thought going into this discussion. You see without discussions like this, where logic can be put forth, we are left to hearing rhetoric from the extremes of both sides. Too much of that is happening.
A couple of points though. I intended to use "assault rifle" and "assault weapon" as generic terms commonplace in our society which describe the type of weapons currently being debated. I also disagree with some comparisons made with regard to a rifle designed to unload as many bullets as possible in the least amount of time. I agree that mental health is at the forefront of the issue concerning violent acts. But how do we determine who is at risk of performing the violence and how can gun advocates make a change before the heavy hand of the law comes in with a ban on freedoms. Open discussions need to be had on every level. I really do appreciate this discussion and hope no one is offended. But if solutions aren't developed on the gun advocate side then anti gun laws will be the governments answer.

 

[erymer]

I have to say i am enjoying the thought going into this discussion. You see without discussions like this, where logic can be put forth, we are left to hearing rhetoric from the extremes of both sides. Too much of that is happening.
A couple of points though. I intended to use "assault rifle" and "assault weapon" as generic terms commonplace in our society which describe the type of weapons currently being debated. I also disagree with some comparisons made with regard to a rifle designed to unload as many bullets as possible in the least amount of time. I agree that mental health is at the forefront of the issue concerning violent acts. But how do we determine who is at risk of performing the violence and how can gun advocates make a change before the heavy hand of the law comes in with a ban on freedoms. Open discussions need to be had on every level. I really do appreciate this discussion and hope no one is offended. But if solutions aren't developed on the gun advocate side then anti gun laws will be the governments answer.

Friendly and open discussion is how we all learn and grow brother. I'm always up for it regardless of what side I start on.

 

[uzj100]

That is a great piece.

 

[krzyabncanuck]

I actually met that man a few times on Bragg. Great person to talk to about that subject.

 

[custyota]

question....

Who here has shot a m16, ar15, m4 or some variant?

Who here has shot a Ak47 or some variant?

I'm sure Darin, Eric and I know I have.

Good discussion guys.

 

[krzyabncanuck]

I carried an AK in country. Along with a Russian 9 mm.

 

[Yukon LX]

I actually met that man a few times on Bragg. Great person to talk to about that subject.

What you your thoughts on him, and to a greater extent, his theories. I always find that piece very hard to ignore. Even though i have never served, and currently do not carry or have the ability to (am a sheep). I am not a blind sheep, and inside my home, i am very well protected. However, i do find this essay fundamentally sound, and hard to ignore.


Edit as written below, people are scared to see an armed officer on a campus, and as written above, they would be horrified if the fire suppression system didn't work. This is 100 percent emotion.

 

[Mtbcoach]

I intended to use "assault rifle" and "assault weapon" as generic terms commonplace in our society which describe the type of weapons currently being debated.

This is precisely a key issue. What is it that makes it such, appearance, capacity, rd/min, bullet mass, bullet bore, sighting options, concealability, etc, etc, etc. The federal law "Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of '94 (which ended in '04 and the world didn't end as most thought it would) defined one as such:

Semi-automatic rifle with detachable magazine and having 2 or more of the following: telescoping/folding stock, pistol grip, bayonet mount, flash suppressor, grenade launcher.

Similar restrictions were placed on semi-auto handguns and shotguns. This also included the "10 round" magazine restriction for handguns. Again, this ended in '04 without issues.

Open discussions need to be had on every level. I really do appreciate this discussion and hope no one is offended. But if solutions aren't developed on the gun advocate side then anti gun laws will be the governments answer.

I couldn't agree more. I view these very personally, working in a educational environment, not being able to carry coming/going to work since I can't park on the property doing such.

I look at my work environment, at a private school and feel very vulnerable at times with our vast property, unsecured for the public to come and go at their leisure. Sure, we have a "security" force but we have 3 campus sites and very slow response time. One of our campuses is across the street from one of Durham's less than attractive apartment complexes, the security staff (most retired Durham PD) requested permission to carry on campus to protect themselves at night. I voted yes without batting an eye, yet, many parents were worried about what the children might think when they see a gun.

I guess I don't comprehend how some parents don't mind their kids blowing things away with a variety of weapons on video games but seeing a uniformed security guard with a firearm on his hip is going to draw concern? WTF?

Would I support a program/system that allowed trained people (at least CCW) to carry during their employment at educational institutions? I'd be first in line and there are many in the industry who silently agree but the political environment at most of these educational institutions aren't very open to this discussion. I would have no problem jumping through what ever hoops I had to in order to do so.

It doesn't matter that, in this case, and in most others, there was no threat to this individual. None of the above "assault rifle restrictions" would have impaired his evil intentions in any manner. So, he might have to reload 3 more times because a politician thinks its a "win" to restrict magazines to 10 rounds.

While some feel this opens the door to discussions, its my opinion that I can do so with family and friends but its too soon for politicians to start stumping already...

 

[Yukon LX]

Adam,

I as a mere civilian, I have shot .223 and .308 variants of the AR platform, as well as an AK-47. Only for sport.

 

[custyota]

Parker good job.... now when u say sport explain? I've target shot with a 308 and a 223. Ak47 is not relly a target shooting gun.....

 

[PhrogsPhorever]

I have carried an M4 and MP5 professionally and have had numerous variants of AR rifles to include a 9mm carbine. I do loves me my M1A Super Match

AKs are fun, got to burn off a few mags in Iraq. I do like the Thompson SMG, nothing rocks like full auto .45ACP.

Sent from my iPhone using IH8MUD

 

[angerhater]

@ Adam, I too as a civi have had opportunities to shoot some fully automatic weapons (m-16, mp-5, u-mp-45) and numerous other semi autos, while I see no need for anyone to have a full auto, I do believe everyone (sane) should have a right to large capacity magazines. not that we need them, but only because too many of them are already out there...
as my pistol has a 18 round capacity, I figure if I can't take care of business with that, then God must really want to meet me

 

[mtweller]

as my pistol has a 18 round capacity, I figure if I can't take care of business with that, then God must really want to meet me

XD? that's what I'm getting and I think that's the highest cap. mag from the manufacturer.

 

[custyota]

How far does that stick out the bottom of the gun?

I'm looking at another sig now. Doh