rotors & pads think I'm feeling some wobble?

[ponytl]

I've started to notice after a few hard stops I'm starting to get some.... what I think it rotor wobble feedback through the steering wheel and the seat of my pants... not all the time but feels like warped rotors?
anyone used these? Front Rotors Ceramic Pad 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 - 2007 LX470 LAND CRUISER

it'd be a good excuse to do the front bearing service and maybe replace the outer tie rods maybe the ball joints a-arm bushing?... what else while I'm in there? this is my DD 320k truck no off road... just 2-3 tanks a gas a week service truck
p

 

[bucfl]

No such thing as warped rotors. I believe its brake dust buildup that causes the pulsation your feeling. If you feel it from your butt, its the rears for sure. If you want to see if you can have the rotors turned that's fine. I just replaced pads/rotors on mine since they were so old. Didn't take them to get checked.

I had the same symptoms your describing. Replaced all 4 corners and haven't had any issues for a year. Cant comment on your choice as I haven't used them. I went with AutoZone premiums, cant remember name.

 

[2001LC]

Not part of wobble issue, but while in there:

I've been finding the outboard front drive shaft seals missing or damaged, on some high millage previously serviced by others. Maybe a good idea to check those along with axle bearing & bushing. Look for any seepage around the differential/ft dr shaft seals as well.

As always you've got a good handle on this stuff, have fun.

 

[STIGPIG]

If you have mileage that high I'd replace the needle bearingswhile you have it pulled apart. When they fail they can make it hard to pinpoint the issue.

 

[sean2202]

@2001LC this "outboard front driveshaft seal" Is this the one that you said was discontinued from Toyota and that a Tacoma seal was used instead?

 

[2001LC]

Yes.

Toyota Dealer could not comeup with part number. I found at # OEM DUST COVER, LEFT for 2001 Toyota Land Cruiser|90304-A0001 which does show for the 2001 Land Cruiser. I then ordered this number (90304-A0001) from my local Toyota parts Dealer guy, he said it comes up under either a Tacoma or Tundra I don't recall which. I matched it to my old dust seal which was off an aftermarket front drive shaft. Can't say for sure it was exact match as old had damaged lip and not off OEM DS, but looked like good match. Pounded it on, with some difficulty as they are a very tight fit. It seem to work well, but have not yet pulled the that 100 back apart to confirm it's not damaged.

This seal protects the knuckle seal which protect the axle bushing & bearing. I've seen bushing & needle bearing with very high millage that still have the factory grease, with no sign of ever being greased during wheel bearing service in it's life. Every one of these needle bearings and bushings were sill good. Shows how good a job this double seal does. It is the only place I can think of we have a double seal on the 100's.

I'm putting two more on today, if I get to it. This 100 had no seals, either this dust seal or the knuckle seal. I'll know after cleaning & inspected if the bushing and bearing survived.

Can you believe the PO paid to have both front Drive Shafts and Wheel bearings replaced and got this (NO SEALS).

I was wondering, because of above and other issue I found, if shop was sabotaging this rig to get more repair work. I got my answer, at least in part, when I saw wheel bearing star lock washer had all five tabs bent over adjusting nut and not one over lock nut. I removed both nuts without tools. Hub was walking off.

Mechanic was incompetent and shop negligent, a very busy local general Auto repair shop with many bays. This shop also estimated $3K for brake repair, I fixed for $150. The list of issue I found on this rig along with PO total lack of understanding of vehicles created the most dangerous 100 on the road I've every seen. I've not exposed this shop, but I should. @Ali FJ80 and I have talked about the many rip offs auto repair shop pull on the unsuspecting, we both get PO'd when we see this S*&T. But what I uncovered on this one during DD and while working on, was the worst and most dangerous situation I've ever seen.

Sorry for hijacking your thread @ponytl.[/USER][/QUOTE]

 

[ponytl]

Thanks for the input,
Just passed the 1yr mark on this build (got it with a blown engine) it was to be my "take the dogs to the lake truck" and has been... "I really like driving this thing everyday truck" I'm starting to order parts and will just have everything on hand when I decide to tear into it... my only experience with the front ends is when I pulled the hubs and greased the bearings on the 470 my wife drives.. (over 180k on original grease and it all looked good) Think i'll dig deeper into mine as my 12yo has claimed ownership when he turns 16... he already backs a trailer and launches boats with it...
p

 

[sean2202]

Sounds like your 12 yr old has a good teacher.

 

[2001LC]

Backs a trailer at 12yrs of age, impressive.

Be interesting to hear what you find with the wheel bearings in this one, I'll bet loose. I like to check snap ring gap before pulling apart, then order some of various thickness to get jump on parts BO wait time.

Order a set of WhiteLine ploy steering rack bushing for current job, have yours been replaced yet?

I did find some addition parts I'll need; ABS wheel sensors, plastic mount was broken at hub. PO's mechanic must have tried praying out, broke and just left, as sensor was frozen in and needed to be tap out from the inside. Brake line mount was broken & zip tied. Upper ball joint boot, order only one last week not seeing other one torn as well. So I'll be held up waiting on part.

I got behind as I didn't even get to cleaning & inspecting wheel bearings, after spending hours yesterday just recondition axles & knuckles (de-rusting & bearing surface prep)..

I will need to inspect a little further, but looks like these axle needle bearings & bushing surprisingly will pass. Had to use emery cloth on all bearing & bushing surfaces to smooth out and get hatch marks.

This side looked the best.

I'll put new seals on once I've got all parts, cleaned and ready for reassemble.

 

[sean2202]

I cannot speak anything about those rotors you mentioned. I used advanced auto parts rotors because I had a $20 coupon.

@cruiseroutfit has a nice 100 series wheel bearing kit with seals along with a c clip set which makes this job a snap.

I picked up the slee spindle bearing grease
tool as well

I used M1 synthetic grease on my wheel bearings last time. Recently I picked up my grease gun that was in my hot garage with
the M1 still in it and the grease had turned
into a liquid and poured out of the back of
the grease gun all over my pants, boots and
garage floor. When I opened the gun half of
the grease had turned to liquid. The other half was like runny play doh. M1's operating range is -40 to 302°F. So we will see what the bearing looks like next time.

 

[ponytl]

thanks... anytime you order from advance online make sure you are signed up for speed perks and use coupon code trt41 that gets you 40% off $100 $40 max discount but you can use your speed perks with it... $5 -$20 off so I typically get $60 off my $100 order...

 

[ponytl]

Backs a trailer at 12yrs of age, impressive.

Be interesting to hear what you find with the wheel bearings in this one, I'll bet loose. I like to check snap ring gap before pulling apart, then order some of various thickness to get jump on parts BO wait time.

Order a set of WhiteLine ploy steering rack bushing for current job, have yours been replaced yet?

I did find an addition parts I'll need; ABS wheel sensors, plastic mount was broken at hub. PO's mechanic must have tried praying out, broke and just left, as sensor was frozen in and needed to be tap out from the inside. Brake line mount was broken & zip tied. Upper ball joint boot, order only one last week not seeing other one torn as well. So I'll be held up waiting on part.

I got behind as I didn't even get to cleaning & inspecting wheel bearings, after spending hours yesterday just recondition axles & knuckles (de-rusting & bearing surface prep)..

View attachment 1303370
View attachment 1303379

I will need to inspect a little further, but looks like these axle needle bearings & bushing surprisingly will pass. Had to use emery cloth on all bearing & bushing surfaces to smooth out and get hatch marks.
View attachment 1303376
This side looked the best.
View attachment 1303377

I'll put new seals on once I've got all parts, cleaned and ready for reassemble.

Wow thanks for the pictures huge help... yes I replaced the rack bushings while I had the engine out (blue ones off ebay) but the oem ones were all but GONE... it still drives well and I only feel a little abnormal feedback when I hard brake... so I guess i'll stock up on parts and when I get a clean spot in my shop I'll get after it... I'm going to post some pictures of the most fricked up shop (mine) one day... I have 60x80 and right now I could not get the cruiser 5ft in the door...

 

[djernie]

Backs a trailer at 12yrs of age, impressive.

Be interesting to hear what you find with the wheel bearings in this one, I'll bet loose. I like to check snap ring gap before pulling apart, then order some of various thickness to get jump on parts BO wait time.

Order a set of WhiteLine ploy steering rack bushing for current job, have yours been replaced yet?

I did find an addition parts I'll need; ABS wheel sensors, plastic mount was broken at hub. PO's mechanic must have tried praying out, broke and just left, as sensor was frozen in and needed to be tap out from the inside. Brake line mount was broken & zip tied. Upper ball joint boot, order only one last week not seeing other one torn as well. So I'll be held up waiting on part.

I got behind as I didn't even get to cleaning & inspecting wheel bearings, after spending hours yesterday just recondition axles & knuckles (de-rusting & bearing surface prep)..

View attachment 1303370
View attachment 1303379

I will need to inspect a little further, but looks like these axle needle bearings & bushing surprisingly will pass. Had to use emery cloth on all bearing & bushing surfaces to smooth out and get hatch marks.
View attachment 1303376
This side looked the best.
View attachment 1303377

I'll put new seals on once I've got all parts, cleaned and ready for reassemble.

Thanks for pictures, always helps to see pictures.

 

[2001LC]

Your both welcome.

Keep in mind, those picture are from a 100 where PO's mechanic left seals out. Generally the two seal are in good enough shape its only necessary to grease the axle needle bearing & bushing. The first picture in post #6 is where I was using the Slee - Spindle Grease Tool and as the grease pushed through the spindle, it pushed out the axle revealing the crud in the bushing along with both seals missing.

I have found (on an aftermarket front drive shaft) lip on out board front drive shaft dust seal damaged. The lip of the seal came apart leaving material (contaminate) in area. Even then, the bushing was in pretty good shape and needle bearing had what look like factory grease still in good condition. If (not sure) this had the original knuckle, it had ~200K miles on it, and most likely had never been re-greased since the factory. Amazing how well these hold up. I can't say why both PS & DS seals were damaged. It could have been from fitment issue. Or may have been from loose wheel bearing, excessive snap ring gap, poorly balance tires and loose steering rack producing excessive vibration & movement. Or all of the above.

I found damaged seals while inspecting back side, after pushing axle in a bit to grease.

Some contaminations from seal material, but can still see white grease which looks like factory.

This was also the first time where I found excise backlash between axle & hub flange teeth wear. The wear is mostly on one side of teeth, that is, in direction of travel. Seems hub flange teeth gets the most wear, possible softer metal than axle. This backlash is primary cause of N to D clunk. This is caused by loose wheel bearings and excessive snap ring gap creating a sawing action on teeth. The fix at Toyota Dealer shop is NEW OEM front drive shaft & hub flange if under warrant, but replacing just hub flange is helpful. I was speaking to CVJ here in Denver. We came up with; one could swap axle from one side to the other and tighten this up a bit, as direction of travel is then changed onto good or better side of axle teeth. Note: Rebuilt axle will have some wear on teeth, so I'd not be in a hurry to replace unless CV joint (clicking) have gone bad or axle teeth are very worn.

 

[abuck99]

@2001LC As usual your attention to detail is excellent and helpful. I wondered what CVJ did to the axle splines- I guess nothing but paint. So besides new boots, grease and clamps what else do they freshen up? Do they do anything to the inside surface of the tulip, or use new ball bearings ?

Have you tried swapping flanges to the opposite side before doing axles? Prob wouldn't buy too much time but could help improve the back lash for a while. Makes sense that the flange would be a wear item or be softer steel than the axle. It's cheaper to replace.

 

[2001LC]

@2001LC As usual your attention to detail is excellent and helpful. I wondered what CVJ did to the axle splines- I guess nothing but paint. So besides new boots, grease and clamps what else do they freshen up? Do they do anything to the inside surface of the tulip, or use new ball bearings ?

Have you tried swapping flanges to the opposite side before doing axles? Prob wouldn't buy too much time but could help improve the back lash for a while. Makes sense that the flange would be a wear item or be softer steel than the axle. It's cheaper to replace.

I really can't say what CVJ does. It was my understanding they have a tool for resurfacing the bearing area and installing oversized bearings. Give him a call he likes to chat, if you catch on a slow day.

When I spoke with him it was about the play (backlash), in how much he felt was acceptable. His answer was "need some or would be to difficult to assemble". My feeling at that point was, if I do go with remanufactured I'll take new hub flanges with me to fit and be selective.

I then went into Toyota Dealers Shop and spoke with senior mechanic, as shop foreman was not around to speak with. He said 0 zero play, if they have issue with N to D clunk under warranty they go new OEM front Drive shaft and hub flange, or will be chase clunk.

Yes swapping hub flange also helps tighten up, and is easier. I consider this, but felt if swapping shaft at same time it would not be as effective. My thinking was it will put best surface in direction of travel, but backlash will be the same on outer teeth. Helping with N to D but not D to R. Drive shaft also can have some play on inner teeth as well. The hub flange teeth I pictured above, I replaced, as I felt they were to far gone. The axle wasn't to bad so I left in place, saving work and cost of seals & snap ring. I did get a noticeable difference in reducing clunk. My price was $50 each flange.

Note: It is a good idea to replace inner front drive shaft to differential seal along with inner snap ring when swapping.

 

[2001LC]

Here a few examples of non reusable parts when servicing wheel bearings. Non usable do to damage done by improper servicing of wheel bearing, axle bushing & bearings and damaged or missing seal, snap ring gap to wide etc.....

Hub flange has harden coating almost completely gone from pounding from wide gap. Gap was widened further do to wear of axle bushing & inner back-side of spindle (large bearing to spindle area) wear. This is the worst I've seam.
See only small amount of harden surface remains:

Example of hub flange with harden surface in-tacked with some scoring.

Snap ring pounded (unusable). Cone washer damaged from pounding do to wide gap, also tool marks for improper removal (unusable)

 

[sean2202]

@2001LC If I recall you were using higher than FSM specs for wheel bearing tightness. Have you pulled any apart yet at those new readings?
When I did mine I tightened higher than FSM specs. I could not get the proper reading on fish scale at fsm specs.
I found that the tighter you go on the wheel bearing that the outer snap ring has to change as well.

 

[abuck99]

I'll add that the snap rings get stretched out, or bent from using the wrong tool to remove them. Using a good snap ring plier will save the snap ring for another day, or at least make it easy to get on/off.

I'm not a fan of reusing the cone washers, I think it is another (small) source that contributes to driveline slop.

 

[vipergrhd]

No such thing as warped rotors. I believe its brake dust buildup that causes the pulsation your feeling. If you feel it from your butt, its the rears for sure. If you want to see if you can have the rotors turned that's fine. I just replaced pads/rotors on mine since they were so old. Didn't take them to get checked.

I had the same symptoms your describing. Replaced all 4 corners and haven't had any issues for a year. Cant comment on your choice as I haven't used them. I went with AutoZone premiums, cant remember name.

Could you kindly explain why there is no such thing as warped rotors and why would brake dust cause a vibration or pulsation when you brake?