Question on timing 1fz

flintknapper

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Ok. So with an extension in the spark plugs hole I rotated to 0TDC. The extension was at the top of it's movement but the diz rotor was facing toward the 4-5 o'clock position.

The other times I would keep rotating and when it came back to 0TDC and top of it's movement it would be pointing at the #1 wire on the diz cap. This is where I would pull the diz and try to make adjustments.

This time I pulled it from the first position I described. When I lined up the diz marks and inserted it looked like this...
View attachment 2706682

Wich looks like what you guys have been telling me it should look like. I button it up but it won't start.


You're 180° out now. You were doing it right the first time.

Pluck the dizzy bring it back around again to TDC (#1 cyl on the compression stroke) and reinsert the dizzy so you can get it started again.

You may end up having to pull the valve cover and check the cam alignment. Any start up rattle from your engine? It is difficult for the timing chain to skip a tooth....but possible if it has enough stretch or your tensioner (hydraulic activated) is weak.
 
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Once again. He said PO recently did or had done the HG. Nothing needed to skip anywhere. I think also there are 2 positions that the dizzy drive gear can be put on the cam. Somebody could have simply botched that and the gear teeth would be in a different orientation. It wouldn't be much but could explain being a battle of a few degrees.
 
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So I put it back to what it was. Still maxes out at 0TDC. I can only get the diz in with the rotor pointed how it is in my very 1st pic or my 2nd pic. I can't get it to go anywhere in between unless I have it 180 degrees out like my 3rd pic.
 
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Yeah the teeth are pretty coarse. There isn't an in between you are looking for. Each position possibility is like an entire cylinder of orientation from the next.
 

flintknapper

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I'll pull the valve cover tomorrow I guess.

Hate that for you....but at this juncture it would be good to know what you are dealing with.

exh cam install4.jpg
exh cam install5.jpg
 

mudgudgeon

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Ok. So with an extension in the spark plugs hole I rotated to 0TDC. The extension was at the top of it's movement but the diz rotor was facing toward the 4-5 o'clock position.

Sounds like you were centering it on the exhaust stroke, so 180⁰ out.
If you do the same on the compression stroke the rotor should be pointing at about half past 11 o'clock ish

When you use something in the plug hole to find TDC, check that the harmonic balancer timing mark lands on 0⁰
Also, keep in mind that the piston will "dwell" at top dead centre for a few degrees of crank rotation. You need to rotate the crank back and forth a little to gauge were 0⁰TDC is.

It's entirely possible that your harmonic balancer is failing and the outer ring with the timing mark may have slipped.
I'd be checking and inspecting this before pulling valve covers etc.

Checking the harmonic balancer costs nothing, is easy to do. Not catching a failing harmonic balancer can be catastrophic to the engine.

If timing chain was off by even one tooth, valve timing would be way out and it would run like shìt.
If it were out by two teeth, I'd guess it would be running ROUGH!

I'd avoid pulling valve cover etc until you've exhausted other simpler possible causes.
 
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@ariff had an experience similar to this.

He acquired a LC that did not run, that had just had a HG done.

He struggled for a while to try to get it timed and organized to make it run.

When he pulled the VC, the cams were not in time with each other. The PO had no idea what they were doing and just threw it back together.

He got it running and it drove about 500 miles before the "new" HG failed (He may chime in and correct me on details) but the main thing is don't ASSUME anything at this point.

The only thing you probably can assume is that you need to pull it all apart, do a NEW HG because you cannot trust anything the PO did.

There are so many things that could be wrong here and most have already been mentioned.

Changing the dizzy setting over and over with no different results will not change a bad cam setting or a missing key in the HB.

Right now, I'm betting on the missing key in the HB.

You can pull the bolt and insert a wire into the keyway to see if the key is there or not. Worst case you have to reinstall the HB bolt.

Second, I would pull the VC. No, I wouldn't want to either, but never underestimate stupid.

Good luck!
 
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Also, when you're doing this, ONLY go in the correct rotation of crank travel for these settings. If you rotate back and forth, you take up all the "slack" in the opposite direction and your settings will be off, especially in the case of the timing chain, as it is loose when it's not running because the tensioner is hydraulic. This will really mess with getting the dizzy gear in the RIGHT spot, as you're fighting chain slack.
 
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I've read Ariff's thread. Would the vehicle even run with the cams not aligned? I know in his original thread the truck didn't run.

I didn't get to removing the cover today. To hot out and didn't really have the desire to do it. I'll get at it tomorrow though and post pics of what I find.

Why would a missing key in the HB cause this issue? Wouldn't there be major wobbly or something without the key?
 
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I've read Ariff's thread. Would the vehicle even run with the cams not aligned? I know in his original thread the truck didn't run.

I didn't get to removing the cover today. To hot out and didn't really have the desire to do it. I'll get at it tomorrow though and post pics of what I find.

Why would a missing key in the HB cause this issue? Wouldn't there be major wobbly or something without the key?
The key is set to put the pulley in exact orientation for the timing mark. Without the key the HB can be clocked anywhere you want it to be and run fine forever if the nut is tight. However the timing mark will be completely useless.
 

mudgudgeon

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Why would a missing key in the HB cause this issue? Wouldn't there be major wobbly or something without the key?

The harmonic balancer has a tapered fit to the crank shaft, also tapered. When the retaining bolt is tightened down to torque, friction locks the harmonic balancer in place.
The key is primarily to locate it in the correct orientation, but also helps prevent it moving on the crank.

The harmonic balancer is two metal parts, bonded together with vulcanised rubber between them. The rubber hardens and fails over time.
The outer ring can slip or rotate separately to the inner portion.
This affects crank shaft balancing, but also means the timing mark may not be reliable.
 
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I've read Ariff's thread. Would the vehicle even run with the cams not aligned? I know in his original thread the truck didn't run.

I didn't get to removing the cover today. To hot out and didn't really have the desire to do it. I'll get at it tomorrow though and post pics of what I find.

Why would a missing key in the HB cause this issue? Wouldn't there be major wobbly or something without the key?
Ariff's truck would sputter when cranking and backfire through the intake.

The cams were not even close.

In your case, one cam could be off one tooth from each other and it could still run, just very poorly.
 
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at this point step one is to remove valve cover step two bring number one cylinder to top dead centre on compression stroke. Step three verify crank pulley Mark is aligned with Mark on front cam chain cover. if so verify that intake valves and exhaust valves have play between the shim and cams.

There is something out of whack.
 
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I had one give me a lot of trouble with high idle. Early and late 1FZ come with two different idle speed control valves. Not much work to take it off and verify the head it's completely different on the early and late. Might be the reason why you can't get timing set.
 

flintknapper

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@flintknapper with these pictures I wonder if you are getting ready to publish the FSM in color!


God forbid. I just tend to document the things I do....in case it might help someone else.

So often times....I have photos.

I'm a 'visual' person....I know it certainly helps ME to have something to look at.
 

clx16

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well... the photography is rather good quality compare to most mud photos. Wouldn't hurt for you to make a few bucks making a supplementary document! Might help pay for having a cruisers.
 

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