is the upper tailgate hatch structural? (1 Viewer)

[Krominicon]

so this is kind of a weird question. i did some searching and didn't find anything that really answered this questions. but i was wondering if the upper tailgate hatch affects the overall structural rigidity of the body of the truck? like if hypothetically if the upper tailgate was missing but the lower was still intact how would that affect the body? i'm having a hard time figuring out how to ask this question so i understand if it doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Kernal]

I'll take a WAG: maybe not critical to body rigidity but may be important in the event of a rollover. Maybe less likely for the roof to collapse with the rear hatch and tailgate closed and in place. ie: everything is attached to the body (doors, windows, etc) during crash testing.

You could install strain gauges between a few points on the rear body opening and take it for a drive then check the readouts. You might have to hire an engineer to help.

Or, firmly attach/glue a narrow piece of plate glass (not safety glass) across the upper hatch area side-to-side (hatch removed), then go for a ride on an uneven road. If the glass cracks you have your answer, or part of it.

FWIW I've driven short distances home from the hardware store with the hatch open when carrying long items inside the vehicle, no issues from that.

What are your plans??

 

[Krominicon]

I'll take a WAG: maybe not critical to body rigidity but may be important in the event of a rollover. Maybe less likely for the roof to collapse with the rear hatch and tailgate closed and in place. ie: everything is attached to the body (doors, windows, etc) during crash testing.

You could install strain gauges between a few points on the rear body opening and take it for a drive then check the readouts. You might have to hire an engineer to help.

Or, firmly attach/glue a narrow piece of plate glass (not safety glass) across the upper hatch area side-to-side (hatch removed), then go for a ride on an uneven road. If the glass cracks you have your answer, or part of it.

FWIW I've driven short distances home from the hardware store with the hatch open when carrying long items inside the vehicle, no issues from that.

What are your plans??

i was thinking the same thing for a rollover. but besides that i was having a hard time coming up with a reason that the rear tailgate might be important to the structure of the body. i'm not really interested in testing that, just kind of speculating what it could be.

i've been having the classic "rust under the rear hatch glass" issue for a while now and i've searched for a permanent fix that will stop rust from presenting itself again later, but nothing i've read or watched has really been all that satisfactory to me. i still just feel like it's covering up a larger issue that might be ultimately fruitless to try and fix. but i was kind of thinking how to prevent the rust and had the idea of making myself a tailgate by hand (sounds absurd i know) out of something that doesn't rust, like fiber glass or carbon fiber. i've been really interested in composite material manufacturing ever since i got into mountain biking (a lot of bikes nowadays are made from carbon fiber) and so i thought this might be an interesting project to get my hands dirty with making something myself.

it's super impractical and probably more dificult than i can realistically handle, but a combination of my hate for rust and interest in composites is kind of pushing me in the direction of trying to make my own upper tailgate hatch so i can stop worrying about rusting a hole through it.

 

[Kernal]

The fix for rust under the hatch glass gasket is to remove the glass and gasket
and have a body shop fix whatever they find. Once the rust is taken care of and any painting is completed, then you can fog the interior cavities of the hatch with something like 3M Cavity wax. Then have the rear glass and a new gasket installed.

IIRC someone in the world built a one-off one piece fiberglass rear hatch/tailgate. Try a search.

 

[Krominicon]

i've been having trouble finding a body shop that will even consider treating the rust. i would totally be okay paying someone to do it but no one locally seems to be interested in fixing it.

i can't seem to find the fiberglass rear hatch, i'll keep searching and see if i can find anything.

 

[beatle_bayly]

How bad is the rust? Most shops won't attempt this work any more as it's labour intensive=expensive.

Is there some sort of local hobby group or technical trade school nearby that might do the job for you, or help you do it yourself?

A fibreglass rear hatch would be a mammoth task to undertake for a home fabricator, and I'll bet at least double the weight of the OEM unit. Fibreglass will also crack much more readily around hinge and mount points when subjected to rough roads/tracks.

Even if the hatch doesn't provide much by way of structural integrity to the whole body, it still needs to be able to support itself, fit into the quite complex hole in the body, and provide weather and fume sealing.

A much better use of your time would be to carry out metal repair to your existing hatch (or buy a spare to work on while yours remains installed). The skills you learn (and new tools you procure) will help should you need to do any rust repairs elsewhere.

If you tend to the rust early, and do a decent job, you'll get years out of a repair. But even if you had a 100% rust-proof hatch, how long until corrosion appears elsewhere on the body so you are left with a pile of rust, and a nice hatch.......?

Have you looked into buying a brand new hatch? If you start with virgin metal I'm sure you could treat and maintain it so it lasts almost indefinitely.

Lastly, don't believe for a moment that any full-chassis 4WD built prior to the noughties has any real structural integrity in the roof. In a rollover most roofs will readily flatten down to the dash/bottom of the windows under their own weight (or that of a horse, camel, cow, and I expect, moose ). I don't believe crash testing looks at this aspect?

 

[mudgudgeon]

so this is kind of a weird question. i did some searching and didn't find anything that really answered this questions. but i was wondering if the upper tailgate hatch affects the overall structural rigidity of the body of the truck? like if hypothetically if the upper tailgate was missing but the lower was still intact how would that affect the body? i'm having a hard time figuring out how to ask this question so i understand if it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I would say given that it only latches in the centre at the bottom, no.
If it was a critical element, I'd think it would have burst proof latches at each corner of the bottom. But just speculating.

They flex and rattle a lot on rough dirt roads, and let dust in. Hardly a rigid panel that's integral to the body IMO

 

[mingles]

This is probably more "out of the box" than you are thinking but this guy made a extended storage area out of the rear hatch using a steel skeleton and fiberglass.

See link below pic.

ROTM, my family travel rig. Lots of DIY. - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/rotm-my-family-travel-rig-lots-of-diy.1030630/post-11376175

 

[Pascoscout]

I doubt very much that it is structural. It's only attached by the two hinges on top and the catch at the bottom. It floats on the rubber seals on all 4 sides when closed. I suppose if you crushed the roof in just the right way it might bind it in but I think it's more likely the catch would fail and it would slide down over the lower gate.

I just repaired mine. It's not a super easy job but can be done with a cheap mig welder and a hand bender for the sheet metal. Hardest part is matching the curve of the tailgate, its very slight but if you have to span more than an inch or two you will notice that a flat sheet does not line up anymore.

How bad is your rust? Like, is it showing in one small spot, or all along the edge. Figure there is probably more than you actually see too. I had one place bubbling paint but ended up replacing about 10 inches of the seam when I was all said and done. There are some pics in the link in my signature.

 

[Krominicon]

the rust is pretty bad. i haven't pulled the window out to take a look yet because i've been in school and it's my only car, so i need it to be intact until i'm at my parents house again over the spring and have time to take a better look. but there's two spots where the rust is starting to poke out, one on the driver side which is smaller than a dime, and one on the passenger side that's easily bigger than a quarter. i have been looking for a replacement hatch as well, but i haven't been able to find any good used ones and i didn't know that i could still buy a new one? i wouldn't think that those were made anywhere anymore so i haven't even searched for anything like that.

i've never welded before (but i plan on learning soon) so that kind of a repair i wouldn't be comfortable doing on my own yet. pretty much everyone i've talked to has said i should just get a new hatch, but again, i've been having a hard time finding a decent one.

 

[Krominicon]

I doubt very much that it is structural. It's only attached by the two hinges on top and the catch at the bottom. It floats on the rubber seals on all 4 sides when closed. I suppose if you crushed the roof in just the right way it might bind it in but I think it's more likely the catch would fail and it would slide down over the lower gate.

I just repaired mine. It's not a super easy job but can be done with a cheap mig welder and a hand bender for the sheet metal. Hardest part is matching the curve of the tailgate, its very slight but if you have to span more than an inch or two you will notice that a flat sheet does not line up anymore.

How bad is your rust? Like, is it showing in one small spot, or all along the edge. Figure there is probably more than you actually see too. I had one place bubbling paint but ended up replacing about 10 inches of the seam when I was all said and done. There are some pics in the link in my signature.

i just looked at your build thread to see what you did, i think it looks pretty good. do you think if i got a decent donor hatch and cut out the same piece from the donor (obviously depending on if there was rust there or not) that that would work? i have an angle grinder, but i don't have any sheet metal benders or anything like that. i plan on learning how to weld at some point so this might be a good time learn i suppose.

 

[Krominicon]

here's some pictures of the rust btw

as you can see it's pretty bad, and i'm sure it's a lot worse underneath. i'd honestly prefer to replace it with something cleaner that i could just do an easy touchup on if needed than doing a full on cut and weld.

 

[YMT]

The rear hatch isn't structural, however, as mentioned about the latch, two side catches, and hinges, it does aid in keeping things aligned, just like doors help with body twisting - it can still happen, but is limited by the amount of play in each opening.

The rust is normal for those in the rust belt. Grime and moisture accumulate in the seals, and rust ensues. Best fix is a rust-free replacement piece. If coat prohibited, you can repair, either by patches, or body repair (both of well covered in other threads).

OP, since you're in ID, look for hatches in the SW. I've sold several in recent years for $100; shipping won't be cheap, but also check "mudship". I'm sure you can find a cost effective replacement.

@Deathvalleypaul, @Alex79 both part out, in CA, and may be able to help. I'm sure others closer also have good parts, if CA is too expensive to ship from.

 

[Krominicon]

The rear hatch isn't structural, however, as mentioned about the latch, two side catches, and hinges, it does aid in keeping things aligned, just like doors help with body twisting - it can still happen, but is limited by the amount of play in each opening.

The rust is normal for those in the rust belt. Grime and moisture accumulate in the seals, and rust ensues. Best fix is a rust-free replacement piece. If coat prohibited, you can repair, either by patches, or body repair (both of well covered in other threads).

OP, since you're in ID, look for hatches in the SW. I've sold several in recent years for $100; shipping won't be cheap, but also check "mudship". I'm sure you can find a cost effective replacement.

@Deathvalleypaul, @Alex79 both part out, in CA, and may be able to help. I'm sure others closer also have good parts, if CA is too expensive to ship from.

thanks for the info, there's also a place in utah that has a lot of 80 series and they might have a replacement. i'm going to give them a call tomorrow, and i could drive down and pick it up in person. i'd prefer not to pay shipping if i can avoid it.

 

[cahill]

That rust doesn't look too bad to me. It should be fixable. If a body shop isn't willing to help with the rust repair you might be able to find a welder who does automotive body or fabrication that can cut out the rust and re-weld and then just paint it yourself with a spray can of paint made from the paint code or take it to a body shop to paint it after the rust is repaired. That might be more expensive than finding a used hatch but might not - especially if you paint it yourself.

 

[COYS]

Simple. Just replace with a rust-free used hatch. Next.

(I love Boise)

 

[BILT4ME]

here's some pictures of the rust btw
View attachment 2971091
View attachment 2971092
View attachment 2971093
as you can see it's pretty bad, and i'm sure it's a lot worse underneath. i'd honestly prefer to replace it with something cleaner that i could just do an easy touchup on if needed than doing a full on cut and weld.

View attachment 2971090

Contact @slow95z to see if he has a white hatch you need.

Then contact @Fj81 to see if he is close enough right now and you can throw him a few $$$ to pick it up and deliver on his way back to the NW.

Can maybe even get one out of Austin, TX at @arcteryx with same guy to carry.

Just a thought.

Way cheaper and easier in the log run to buy a clean used one than to have one fixed. If you can have one in your hands, complete for $400, you'll be money ahead from trying to repair the one you have and you can be driving it until the day you decide you want to swap it.

Also, that ain't rust. Sell that one to someone in Ohio as rust-free and get your money back.

If you can't throw a chicken through it, it ain't rust.

 

[slow95z]

The only white hatch I have is from a 3fe truck. I have a couple in other colors from 1fz rigs.

 

[Heckraiser]

My solution was to replace with a rust-free hatch from the junkyard. But that now is beginning to rust too. At least it's early enough stage that I can probably pull the window and repair without too much work. But knowing me, i'll put it off until it's serious again.

 

[BILT4ME]

Where is the water entering the hatch from above?

Are there drains from the hatch body or is it filling with water and having lots of condensation so it's going through dewpoint 2X+ per day?

They all seem to rust in the same places, has anyone seriously looked at why?

Is this a window glass seal issue?