Here is a better pic of my own VR.
And YES this proves that I mixed up the left and right positions.
Rudi
And YES this proves that I mixed up the left and right positions.
Rudi
Charging system issues
- Thread starter Travis22
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- Thread starter
- #62
Hi Rudi, ive re-read your post now over and over and it is starting to sink in.
In a nut shell you think that perhaps there is not enough tension on the spring inside the VR?
Without enough tension the magnetic field constantly pulls the contact between open (control resistor) and P2, where it seems to spend most of its time once the battery is near full charge... then again it doesnt explain why like in the last video when i turned on the headlights - the alternator output dropped significantly - both in voltage and current.
Ive removed the new VR and opened it up, it looks exactly like the one in your last post. AVR-554 12V.
I dont really have a variable DC supply so i thought i could refit it to the vehicle and setup 3 volt meters and video the lot with the cover off the VR and try and follow what happens.
DMM on the IG (source), DMM on the Alternators output (B+) and the AMM on the F (field).
Mind you i think we know exactly what it is doing, the question is why. I would expect if we think the VR is chattering between P0 and P2 then by simply adding a load to the circuit one would expect to see the VR return back to P1 and the field voltage would be fairly stable at its full output level???
Travis.
PS - good idea re: using another battery to isolate the input source voltage for the VR!!!!
In a nut shell you think that perhaps there is not enough tension on the spring inside the VR?
Without enough tension the magnetic field constantly pulls the contact between open (control resistor) and P2, where it seems to spend most of its time once the battery is near full charge... then again it doesnt explain why like in the last video when i turned on the headlights - the alternator output dropped significantly - both in voltage and current.
Ive removed the new VR and opened it up, it looks exactly like the one in your last post. AVR-554 12V.
I dont really have a variable DC supply so i thought i could refit it to the vehicle and setup 3 volt meters and video the lot with the cover off the VR and try and follow what happens.
DMM on the IG (source), DMM on the Alternators output (B+) and the AMM on the F (field).
Mind you i think we know exactly what it is doing, the question is why. I would expect if we think the VR is chattering between P0 and P2 then by simply adding a load to the circuit one would expect to see the VR return back to P1 and the field voltage would be fairly stable at its full output level???
Travis.
PS - good idea re: using another battery to isolate the input source voltage for the VR!!!!
Travis, this is going through my grey stuff aka brain:
The components of a charge circuit are: the alternator, the voltage regulator, the wiring, the fuse(s)/fusepanel, the fusible link, the ignition key, the connectors in the wiring circuit, the battery and his clamps. Did I forget anything here? Yes, the Ammeter of course.
So I'm going through the list of possibilities.
Old alt and old vr = problem.
New alt and old vr = still the same problem.
Old alt and new vr = still the same problem.
New alt and new vr = still the same problem.
So logically these components are ruled out unless both alts or both vr's are having te same problem whatever that may be.
You changed, replaced, bridged and added parallel wiring. Still the same problem.
You pulled fuses to eliminate current draw or to find out which circuit drew current. Didn't help, still the same problem.
You replaced the fusible link. The problem got worse you say but it's still there,
The ignition key. We can rule that out. If there is a problem the charge circuit works or doesn't or works intermittent but that's not the case. The IGN key provides the "source" for the VR and that one is pretty steady.
You checked all (or most of) the connectors by pulling, pushing, bending, twisting, moving and so on. The problem doesn't change and is still there.
The battery (and the clamps). You've checked that, tapped on the battery post's, checked the clamps and their bolt and nuts. Still the same problem.
The ammeter. Is doing it's job. If there is a bad connection it would go to 0 but not to negative so we can forget about that one too.
So now we are at the bottom of the list.
What's left is the replacement of the +Bat wire and the possibility that both VR's are having the same problem. (Murphy's Law #379 - new parts don't solve the problem) or (Murphy's Law # 587 - new parts are defective).
As I re-read your thread the problem also occurs with no additional load, only less frequent. With an extra load (the headlights) the problem appears sooner.
Am I right so far? Did I forget something?
Rudi
The components of a charge circuit are: the alternator, the voltage regulator, the wiring, the fuse(s)/fusepanel, the fusible link, the ignition key, the connectors in the wiring circuit, the battery and his clamps. Did I forget anything here? Yes, the Ammeter of course.
So I'm going through the list of possibilities.
Old alt and old vr = problem.
New alt and old vr = still the same problem.
Old alt and new vr = still the same problem.
New alt and new vr = still the same problem.
So logically these components are ruled out unless both alts or both vr's are having te same problem whatever that may be.
You changed, replaced, bridged and added parallel wiring. Still the same problem.
You pulled fuses to eliminate current draw or to find out which circuit drew current. Didn't help, still the same problem.
You replaced the fusible link. The problem got worse you say but it's still there,
The ignition key. We can rule that out. If there is a problem the charge circuit works or doesn't or works intermittent but that's not the case. The IGN key provides the "source" for the VR and that one is pretty steady.
You checked all (or most of) the connectors by pulling, pushing, bending, twisting, moving and so on. The problem doesn't change and is still there.
The battery (and the clamps). You've checked that, tapped on the battery post's, checked the clamps and their bolt and nuts. Still the same problem.
The ammeter. Is doing it's job. If there is a bad connection it would go to 0 but not to negative so we can forget about that one too.
So now we are at the bottom of the list.
What's left is the replacement of the +Bat wire and the possibility that both VR's are having the same problem. (Murphy's Law #379 - new parts don't solve the problem) or (Murphy's Law # 587 - new parts are defective).
As I re-read your thread the problem also occurs with no additional load, only less frequent. With an extra load (the headlights) the problem appears sooner.
Am I right so far? Did I forget something?
Rudi
- Thread starter
- #64
Hi Rudi, pretty much spot on so far.
...........
Ive just been out in the garage and setup the new VR with the cover removed and hooked up all the multi meters.
Straight away i could see basically whenever the field voltage takes a dive, the contact is moving ever so slightly away from P1 to P0 - moving just into the middle altho almost so small the eye cannot see the gap, HOWEVER one can see the nice bright white/blue arc, spark that is created with every 'cycle'. Every time the field wire voltage moves there is a spark.
So, firstly i started playing around with an insulated screwdriver and pushed on the points, gently applying pressure in both directions, towards P1, and also towards P2.
I could clearly control what was going on however the voltages and current seemed beyond my control.
If i held the contact hard into the P1 position the voltage climbed to around 15.5V and stayed there, however the current remained quite low. If i pushed the contact to P2 the voltage naturally fell.
I then decided id try and adjust the adjustment arm, instead of bending the spring like you have done in the photo at the top of this page, i bend the adjustment arm, up and down.
This did seem to effect the voltage level...
Once i got the setting where i was happy i then tried to load up the circuit by turning on the headlights + the 2x100W spotlights.
The voltage stayed pretty good however the current did not rise as much as id have expected, then i tried to switch off the lights firstly by pushing on the high beam stick on the steering wheel. The headlights then switched off but the spotlights stayed on as did the high beam warning light on the dash!!!!!!!!!!
So now something has gone wrong with the lights....
If i turn off the headlights via the switch on the dash, they turn off. If i pull the switch out to the first position, the park lights illuminate along with the instrument panel lights (good) however when i pull the headlight switch out to the next position, the headlights do not come on, but the high beam warning light comes on, on the dash. Pulling / pushing the high beam stick has no effect what so ever. The headlights do not illuminate at all, high beam or low beam!!!!!!
Ive never had any lighting issues before, so i have no idea if this is related or not.
Now i need to find where to relay is for the headlights??? (Oh and ive check all the fuses and they are all good).
This is getting beyond a joke!
Travis.
...........
Ive just been out in the garage and setup the new VR with the cover removed and hooked up all the multi meters.
Straight away i could see basically whenever the field voltage takes a dive, the contact is moving ever so slightly away from P1 to P0 - moving just into the middle altho almost so small the eye cannot see the gap, HOWEVER one can see the nice bright white/blue arc, spark that is created with every 'cycle'. Every time the field wire voltage moves there is a spark.
So, firstly i started playing around with an insulated screwdriver and pushed on the points, gently applying pressure in both directions, towards P1, and also towards P2.
I could clearly control what was going on however the voltages and current seemed beyond my control.
If i held the contact hard into the P1 position the voltage climbed to around 15.5V and stayed there, however the current remained quite low. If i pushed the contact to P2 the voltage naturally fell.
I then decided id try and adjust the adjustment arm, instead of bending the spring like you have done in the photo at the top of this page, i bend the adjustment arm, up and down.
This did seem to effect the voltage level...
Once i got the setting where i was happy i then tried to load up the circuit by turning on the headlights + the 2x100W spotlights.
The voltage stayed pretty good however the current did not rise as much as id have expected, then i tried to switch off the lights firstly by pushing on the high beam stick on the steering wheel. The headlights then switched off but the spotlights stayed on as did the high beam warning light on the dash!!!!!!!!!!
So now something has gone wrong with the lights....
If i turn off the headlights via the switch on the dash, they turn off. If i pull the switch out to the first position, the park lights illuminate along with the instrument panel lights (good) however when i pull the headlight switch out to the next position, the headlights do not come on, but the high beam warning light comes on, on the dash. Pulling / pushing the high beam stick has no effect what so ever. The headlights do not illuminate at all, high beam or low beam!!!!!!
Ive never had any lighting issues before, so i have no idea if this is related or not.
Now i need to find where to relay is for the headlights??? (Oh and ive check all the fuses and they are all good).
This is getting beyond a joke!
Travis.
My brain is making extra hours now.
The VR listens to the source V-ignition which is the battery voltage and sends a command signal to the Alternator. This command signal can be HIGH (V-bat) for full charge, or can be medium ( half V-bat) for medium/trickle charge, or low (= 0 Volt) for no charge.
We see the result of the output of the Alt at the cluster Ammeter and also at DC Amp clamp meter. We see the same behavior at the Field terminal but now we see it in Volts.
The Alt responds to the signal from the VR. The VR responds to the signal from the IGN key. The signal from the IGN key is steady so where does the problem occur?
I don't believe in feedback from the Ignition coil. I don't see how that should happen. I do see a possibility in a critical adjustment or mis-adjustment of the VR since it's a mechanical regulator which can easily run out of spec.
Time for more thoughts with a nice
Rudi
Update: I just saw your latest posting. I'll let this sink in overnight.
Hasta Mañana. see you tomorrow.
The VR listens to the source V-ignition which is the battery voltage and sends a command signal to the Alternator. This command signal can be HIGH (V-bat) for full charge, or can be medium ( half V-bat) for medium/trickle charge, or low (= 0 Volt) for no charge.
We see the result of the output of the Alt at the cluster Ammeter and also at DC Amp clamp meter. We see the same behavior at the Field terminal but now we see it in Volts.
The Alt responds to the signal from the VR. The VR responds to the signal from the IGN key. The signal from the IGN key is steady so where does the problem occur?
I don't believe in feedback from the Ignition coil. I don't see how that should happen. I do see a possibility in a critical adjustment or mis-adjustment of the VR since it's a mechanical regulator which can easily run out of spec.
Time for more thoughts with a nice
Rudi
Update: I just saw your latest posting. I'll let this sink in overnight.
Hasta Mañana. see you tomorrow.
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- Thread starter
- #66
Time for a few whiskeys indeed!
Thanks for your help, id be well and truly done in if it wasnt for your help / support.
I really hope this headlight thing is related...
So far ive checked the fuses they are all good.
And ive turned on the headlights (switch on the dash pulled out all the way) then pulled the plug off one of the headlights and i have 12V on all 3 terminals..................................
The 2X100W spotlights are wired with a relay triggered from the high beam supply wire at one of the light fittings. Thus if i have the headlight switch on, i get no headlights but i can still manually switch on my spotlights as their relay trigger is still active (high beam), its always active now when the headlight switch is on hence the high beam warning lamp in the dash being illuminated, i cannot turn off 'high beam'...
Should one of the 3 wires at the headlights be a ground (white black stripe)? As i said they are all active if the headlight switch is on......!!!
Just looking at the schematic now and it looks like the horn relay above the accelerator is the headlight relay also... will look into it further now. Actually that doesnt make sense... on the schematic its labeled headlight horn switch... that threw me... Anyone have any idea is there a relay for the headlights or is it all in built to the headlight switch?
All other lights work fine, indicators, park, brake..... I havent checked the horn yet tho.
Travis.
Thanks for your help, id be well and truly done in if it wasnt for your help / support.
I really hope this headlight thing is related...
So far ive checked the fuses they are all good.
And ive turned on the headlights (switch on the dash pulled out all the way) then pulled the plug off one of the headlights and i have 12V on all 3 terminals..................................
The 2X100W spotlights are wired with a relay triggered from the high beam supply wire at one of the light fittings. Thus if i have the headlight switch on, i get no headlights but i can still manually switch on my spotlights as their relay trigger is still active (high beam), its always active now when the headlight switch is on hence the high beam warning lamp in the dash being illuminated, i cannot turn off 'high beam'...
Should one of the 3 wires at the headlights be a ground (white black stripe)? As i said they are all active if the headlight switch is on......!!!
Just looking at the schematic now and it looks like the horn relay above the accelerator is the headlight relay also... will look into it further now. Actually that doesnt make sense... on the schematic its labeled headlight horn switch... that threw me... Anyone have any idea is there a relay for the headlights or is it all in built to the headlight switch?
All other lights work fine, indicators, park, brake..... I havent checked the horn yet tho.
Travis.
- Thread starter
- #67
Ok last post for today.
Ive been back out there one last time just now to try and look over things.
All fuses are fine, all unswitched fuses have power all the time, and the switched fuses activate when they should (Acc / IGN).
Ive found with the headlight switch off - both headlights have zero voltage at any of the 3 wires (low beam active, high beam active, and ground)
With the headlight switch off, if i pull the high beam stick on the steering wheel in (to flash high beams)- all of the lights in the dash inc. the turn signal indicator lamps illuminate. However if i press the high beam stick forward to actually switch high beams on, none of the in dash lights illuminate.
With the headlight switch on in the first position, all park lamps work - front and back, both sides and the normal in dash lamps illuminate.
With the headlight switch on, in the second position, the high beam warning lamp on the dash illuminates (regardless of the position of the high beam switch / stick) (all other normal lamps remain on as do all the park lights), AND on both sides ALL of the headlights wiring becomes active (low beam active, high beam active AND the grounds)
FWIW i also think when i switch on the lights, or pull the high beam stick in to flash the high beams, the body of the car becomes live (i feel a slight tingling on my skin toughing bare metal etc...)
It seems as though all the fuses work fine, as do the switches. There has to be a short circuit somewhere between an active and the ground wire used by the headlights?
The hazard warning light switch functions as normal. When switched on, all indicators work / flash as per normal.
Horn works.
.................................
Does anyone know where the WB ground wires that run out to the headlights originates? It seems that the wire must run continuously from one side / headlight to the other given both sides become live when the headlight switch is switched on.
I dont know how / where to start tracing this..... i guess my worst fear is coming true and im going to have to start unwrapping / the taping over the wiring loom, or could this still potentially be a switch / plug related problem?
Ive pulled the covers off the steering column, and looked over the indicator / high beam stick. Ive pulled the dash out and looked over all of the plugs and wiring that i can see and cannot see anything that looks bad...
Travis.
Ive been back out there one last time just now to try and look over things.
All fuses are fine, all unswitched fuses have power all the time, and the switched fuses activate when they should (Acc / IGN).
Ive found with the headlight switch off - both headlights have zero voltage at any of the 3 wires (low beam active, high beam active, and ground)
With the headlight switch off, if i pull the high beam stick on the steering wheel in (to flash high beams)- all of the lights in the dash inc. the turn signal indicator lamps illuminate. However if i press the high beam stick forward to actually switch high beams on, none of the in dash lights illuminate.
With the headlight switch on in the first position, all park lamps work - front and back, both sides and the normal in dash lamps illuminate.
With the headlight switch on, in the second position, the high beam warning lamp on the dash illuminates (regardless of the position of the high beam switch / stick) (all other normal lamps remain on as do all the park lights), AND on both sides ALL of the headlights wiring becomes active (low beam active, high beam active AND the grounds)
FWIW i also think when i switch on the lights, or pull the high beam stick in to flash the high beams, the body of the car becomes live (i feel a slight tingling on my skin toughing bare metal etc...)
It seems as though all the fuses work fine, as do the switches. There has to be a short circuit somewhere between an active and the ground wire used by the headlights?
The hazard warning light switch functions as normal. When switched on, all indicators work / flash as per normal.
Horn works.
.................................
Does anyone know where the WB ground wires that run out to the headlights originates? It seems that the wire must run continuously from one side / headlight to the other given both sides become live when the headlight switch is switched on.
I dont know how / where to start tracing this..... i guess my worst fear is coming true and im going to have to start unwrapping / the taping over the wiring loom, or could this still potentially be a switch / plug related problem?
Ive pulled the covers off the steering column, and looked over the indicator / high beam stick. Ive pulled the dash out and looked over all of the plugs and wiring that i can see and cannot see anything that looks bad...
Travis.
I don't think you've got a short, but rather an open in the ground. If the WB ground wire to the headlights was not actually connected to ground, that would give you many of the symptoms you are seeing. If you look at the schematic, when in lo beam-with no ground, the current would go through both filaments in the headlights, then back through the hi beam indicator to ground. That would also cause all 3 pins on the headlights to read 12v. How is this relay wired? Is it switching just the power or both power and ground?
This should not be your worst nightmare, and should be pretty easy to find. I would start by checking how the relay is wired. Then, you can temporarily make a ground jumper and connect it to the WB wire near one of the headlights. If that fixes THIS problem, then you just need to find where that wire is disconnected.
Also, if you haven't already, I would triple check out your ground cables EVERYWHERE. One of the issues that we had on my buddy's RV with the battery separator was that there was some extra resistance in the ground cables on ONE of the batteries. Because of how the separator was getting its ground reference for measuring both batteries voltages, one appeared to have higher voltage than the trigger voltage which connected the batteries together, then the batteries would equalize and they would disconnect, then they would connect, back and forth. This reminds me a lot of what you are seeing.
This should not be your worst nightmare, and should be pretty easy to find. I would start by checking how the relay is wired. Then, you can temporarily make a ground jumper and connect it to the WB wire near one of the headlights. If that fixes THIS problem, then you just need to find where that wire is disconnected.
Also, if you haven't already, I would triple check out your ground cables EVERYWHERE. One of the issues that we had on my buddy's RV with the battery separator was that there was some extra resistance in the ground cables on ONE of the batteries. Because of how the separator was getting its ground reference for measuring both batteries voltages, one appeared to have higher voltage than the trigger voltage which connected the batteries together, then the batteries would equalize and they would disconnect, then they would connect, back and forth. This reminds me a lot of what you are seeing.
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If either an open ground or shorted battery hot wire comes into contact with metal and energizes the body that could be you're whole problem with the voltage regulator/alt .
I'd start opening up that headlight harness for starters. I wonder too, if the ignition switch isn't going bad itself . I hate issues like this, yours sounds like my typical stuff, not just a single problem but multiple ones all adding up.
Sarge
I'd start opening up that headlight harness for starters. I wonder too, if the ignition switch isn't going bad itself . I hate issues like this, yours sounds like my typical stuff, not just a single problem but multiple ones all adding up.
Sarge
If the body is energized, it can't be a short from a hot wire because that would burn up the weakest wire through the ground cable path. It would have to be an open ground somewhere.
- Thread starter
- #71
Awesome guys, Sarge / Ed. Glad ya'll think this isnt to bad cos im about ready to give up!
Ed, the relay you question??? Im not sure what your referring to. So far i cannot find a factory headlight relay anywhere! It looks to me like the factory switches are switching full power cables?
I have a relay fitted to switch the spotlights, the trigger for this is taken from the High Beam wire (one of the 3 wires at the back of one of the headlights). When this energizes my spotlight relay can activate and power the spotlights, however i have added a switch into this trigger wire so i can manually switch off the spotlights and run just the headlights on hibeam if desired (pretty standard way of wiring spotlights over here, legally we are required to have them wired such that they cannot be switch on unless the hi beam headlights are on, and they MUST turn off when the hi beam lights turn off (again we are required this by law)).
The supply for the relay / spotlights is a heavy gauge power wire direct from the battery. The ground is unswitched but i have the spotlights directly grounded back to the battery with a matching heavy gauge wire as the active (im not just using the chassis).
It appears this / the spotlights are functioning perfectly fine, i dont think the spotlights have anything to do with the headlight problem?
.....................
With this in mind, should i still start by making the 'ground jumper' wire and forcing the WB wire on the 3 wire plug on the back of one of the headlights to Ground? Given it appears to be at the some potential as the other two wires, is this going to create a spark etc? I dont really understand why it has gone to 12V +ive. if it is an 'open ground', i dont know exactly what this means. I guess if it does spark and or even start heating up the 'ground jumper wire' then we'd know the WB wire is actually shorted out to 12V +ive? yes???
Thanks again guys.
Sarge - absolutely the only thing keeping me going is hoping that as these additional problems emerge they might add up to actually being the intermittent issues that are triggering my VR/Alt problems!
My IGN switch did start to play up briefly. Earlier in this thread i mentioned checking it over, testing all the contacts. Then i gave it a good blasting with contact cleaner. A day later my starter motor started 'overrunning'? Turns out is was the IGN switch 'holding' in the 'start' position for an extra split second or two before returning back to 'run'.
I lubed the switch and its been perfect ever since. I did price a new one from Toyota and it was around $180, thus i thought id try and lube it myself first!!!
Travis.
Ed, the relay you question??? Im not sure what your referring to. So far i cannot find a factory headlight relay anywhere! It looks to me like the factory switches are switching full power cables?
I have a relay fitted to switch the spotlights, the trigger for this is taken from the High Beam wire (one of the 3 wires at the back of one of the headlights). When this energizes my spotlight relay can activate and power the spotlights, however i have added a switch into this trigger wire so i can manually switch off the spotlights and run just the headlights on hibeam if desired (pretty standard way of wiring spotlights over here, legally we are required to have them wired such that they cannot be switch on unless the hi beam headlights are on, and they MUST turn off when the hi beam lights turn off (again we are required this by law)).
The supply for the relay / spotlights is a heavy gauge power wire direct from the battery. The ground is unswitched but i have the spotlights directly grounded back to the battery with a matching heavy gauge wire as the active (im not just using the chassis).
It appears this / the spotlights are functioning perfectly fine, i dont think the spotlights have anything to do with the headlight problem?
.....................
With this in mind, should i still start by making the 'ground jumper' wire and forcing the WB wire on the 3 wire plug on the back of one of the headlights to Ground? Given it appears to be at the some potential as the other two wires, is this going to create a spark etc? I dont really understand why it has gone to 12V +ive. if it is an 'open ground', i dont know exactly what this means. I guess if it does spark and or even start heating up the 'ground jumper wire' then we'd know the WB wire is actually shorted out to 12V +ive? yes???
Thanks again guys.
Sarge - absolutely the only thing keeping me going is hoping that as these additional problems emerge they might add up to actually being the intermittent issues that are triggering my VR/Alt problems!
My IGN switch did start to play up briefly. Earlier in this thread i mentioned checking it over, testing all the contacts. Then i gave it a good blasting with contact cleaner. A day later my starter motor started 'overrunning'? Turns out is was the IGN switch 'holding' in the 'start' position for an extra split second or two before returning back to 'run'.
I lubed the switch and its been perfect ever since. I did price a new one from Toyota and it was around $180, thus i thought id try and lube it myself first!!!
Travis.
Travis, sorry I misunderstood your comment about the relay. There is no factory relay on the headlights.
I would start with finding why the WB wire is not connected to ground. Turn everything off and just use the resistance function of your DMM. Connect one end to the WB wire at the headlight and the other end to the battery neg terminal with both headlight connectors disconnected from the headlights. I suspect that it will be high (or infinite) resistance.
The reason why your WB wire is at 12v can be explained simply. Imagine a simpler headlight circuit with a battery, a single filament bulb, and a switch. Connect the battery positive to one terminal on the bulb. Connect the other bulb terminal to one side of the switch. Connect the other side of the switch back to the battery negative. When the switch is closed, the light is on. If you check this with a DMM, the bulb positive terminal will measure 12v, the negative will measure 0v. Now open the switch. The light goes out. The positive bulb terminal measures 12v. The negative terminal does too! It is not connected to ground anymore, but it IS connected to 12v (through the filament). Once you grasp that concept, if you look at the schematic and mentally disconnect the WB wire from ground, you will see that there is a path from the battery positive to the battery negative through the headlight filaments and through the high beam indicator. The voltage at the WB connector depends on the resistance of the headlight filaments compared to the resistance of the high beam indicator, but it will probably be close to 12v.
I would start with finding why the WB wire is not connected to ground. Turn everything off and just use the resistance function of your DMM. Connect one end to the WB wire at the headlight and the other end to the battery neg terminal with both headlight connectors disconnected from the headlights. I suspect that it will be high (or infinite) resistance.
The reason why your WB wire is at 12v can be explained simply. Imagine a simpler headlight circuit with a battery, a single filament bulb, and a switch. Connect the battery positive to one terminal on the bulb. Connect the other bulb terminal to one side of the switch. Connect the other side of the switch back to the battery negative. When the switch is closed, the light is on. If you check this with a DMM, the bulb positive terminal will measure 12v, the negative will measure 0v. Now open the switch. The light goes out. The positive bulb terminal measures 12v. The negative terminal does too! It is not connected to ground anymore, but it IS connected to 12v (through the filament). Once you grasp that concept, if you look at the schematic and mentally disconnect the WB wire from ground, you will see that there is a path from the battery positive to the battery negative through the headlight filaments and through the high beam indicator. The voltage at the WB connector depends on the resistance of the headlight filaments compared to the resistance of the high beam indicator, but it will probably be close to 12v.
- Thread starter
- #73
Ed, perfectly explained - thankyou!
So this morning i went out and quickly made up some ground jumping wires and just hooked them up to the WB wires on the headlight plugs and attached the other end of the wires to ground.
Bingo, headlights work perfectly. Hi Beam, Lo Beam, Flash Hi Beam etc... everything works as it should and no strange behavior with the in dash instrument lights etc.
Happy with that, i started restoring the factory wiring at the alternator and refitted the voltage reg back on the firewall and reattached the stock wiring.
Once that was all done, i checked the headlights again and everything was good.
Then i removed the ground jumper wires from the two headlights, then thought why not... ill try the headlights again and BAM, they work perfectly!
Hmmmmmm, im not sure what this means. Im hoping this is a good development!!!
Just to be sure, i thought id unplug the voltage reg and bingo, headlights stopped working once again and behaved exactly as they did last night - Reconnect the voltage reg and the headlights are good once more.
Now while i had the voltage reg unplugged id checked the wires on the wiring harness at the plug and found the ground wire, was still grounded. IIRC i mentioned that just the other day in this thread, i was expecting that ground wire between the alt and VR to be an 'open ground' as you call it Ed, because i thought it was a ground wire via the alternator housing to ground, or the VR housing to ground however obviously it is already grounded somewhere upstream. Now im focusing on the little WB wire because its a ground, i guess untill i test the wires one at a time i wont know for sure which one is effecting the headlights.
Hmmmmm, why then does having the VR plugged in or not have this effect on the headlights circuit! Hopefully this is a good development to solving the VR/Alt issues
However i hope im not just getting my hopes up for nothing!
I have to say tho, it seems to good to be true, AND
Why did the headlights originally work when i was doing my last 'bench test' with the VR it was unplugged from the factory wiring and utilizing my test wires- cover removed and my playing with the contacts etc... The headlights turned on fine the first time, it wasnt until i tuned them off that i noticed the problems. (spotlights remained on > unable to turn the headlights back on etc...)
Travis.
So this morning i went out and quickly made up some ground jumping wires and just hooked them up to the WB wires on the headlight plugs and attached the other end of the wires to ground.
Bingo, headlights work perfectly. Hi Beam, Lo Beam, Flash Hi Beam etc... everything works as it should and no strange behavior with the in dash instrument lights etc.
Happy with that, i started restoring the factory wiring at the alternator and refitted the voltage reg back on the firewall and reattached the stock wiring.
Once that was all done, i checked the headlights again and everything was good.
Then i removed the ground jumper wires from the two headlights, then thought why not... ill try the headlights again and BAM, they work perfectly!
Hmmmmmm, im not sure what this means. Im hoping this is a good development!!!
Just to be sure, i thought id unplug the voltage reg and bingo, headlights stopped working once again and behaved exactly as they did last night - Reconnect the voltage reg and the headlights are good once more.
Now while i had the voltage reg unplugged id checked the wires on the wiring harness at the plug and found the ground wire, was still grounded. IIRC i mentioned that just the other day in this thread, i was expecting that ground wire between the alt and VR to be an 'open ground' as you call it Ed, because i thought it was a ground wire via the alternator housing to ground, or the VR housing to ground however obviously it is already grounded somewhere upstream. Now im focusing on the little WB wire because its a ground, i guess untill i test the wires one at a time i wont know for sure which one is effecting the headlights.
Hmmmmm, why then does having the VR plugged in or not have this effect on the headlights circuit! Hopefully this is a good development to solving the VR/Alt issues
However i hope im not just getting my hopes up for nothing!I have to say tho, it seems to good to be true, AND
Why did the headlights originally work when i was doing my last 'bench test' with the VR it was unplugged from the factory wiring and utilizing my test wires- cover removed and my playing with the contacts etc... The headlights turned on fine the first time, it wasnt until i tuned them off that i noticed the problems. (spotlights remained on > unable to turn the headlights back on etc...)
Travis.
I think that Ed is sending you in the right direction and that all the answers come when you find the little problem maker.
My guess is that the main ground wire has a bad contact to ground. If my guess is right that means that the current finds a different (longer) route to ground causing the ground from the harness to float. A bad connection is basically a resistor. Depending on the amp draw the harness ground start floating above zero which can influence your VR problem.
So the big question now is: Where is the main ground wire connected to the frame or body? Maybe the fastest way to get an answer is to start a new thread?
I can tell you that on my '78BJ40 that point is on the inside DS fender but a) it's a diesel with the battery on the DS and b) I'm not 100% sure it's OEM.
You are almost there Tim.
Rudi
My guess is that the main ground wire has a bad contact to ground. If my guess is right that means that the current finds a different (longer) route to ground causing the ground from the harness to float. A bad connection is basically a resistor. Depending on the amp draw the harness ground start floating above zero which can influence your VR problem.
So the big question now is: Where is the main ground wire connected to the frame or body? Maybe the fastest way to get an answer is to start a new thread?
I can tell you that on my '78BJ40 that point is on the inside DS fender but a) it's a diesel with the battery on the DS and b) I'm not 100% sure it's OEM.
You are almost there Tim.
Rudi
- Thread starter
- #75
Hey guys,
Ive been back out to try and identify which wire on the VR is effecting the headlights.
I dont know if there is some electrickery going on or if im just getting delusional, i could have sworn just before when i double checked what was going on, by just disconnecting the VR plug the headlights stopped.
So just now i went out and made quick jumper lead (male to female ends) to test one by one the wires at the VR.
I pulled the VR plug then tried the headlights and they still worked! So i then removed the plug from the alternator as well. Bingo, headlights stopped again.
Seems like its either or, but it is most definitely the WB wire. It needs to be connected to the alternator OR the VR and there will be no headlight problems.
Travis.
Ive been back out to try and identify which wire on the VR is effecting the headlights.
I dont know if there is some electrickery going on or if im just getting delusional, i could have sworn just before when i double checked what was going on, by just disconnecting the VR plug the headlights stopped.
So just now i went out and made quick jumper lead (male to female ends) to test one by one the wires at the VR.
I pulled the VR plug then tried the headlights and they still worked! So i then removed the plug from the alternator as well. Bingo, headlights stopped again.
Seems like its either or, but it is most definitely the WB wire. It needs to be connected to the alternator OR the VR and there will be no headlight problems.
Travis.
- Thread starter
- #76
G'day Rudi,
The million dollar question alright!
First time i read this part i thought you were referring to the grounds to my battery, and i was going to say they are absolutely good
. 100% clean, sanded back to copper on every single lug, metal surfaces all clean and bare metal... batt > engine block > chassis > body........Then i clicked and i guess you mean the wiring harness, it must connect to ground somewhere itself, im guess inside the cabin somewhere...... but yes, i have no idea. I will start searching around now, im sure the answer must already be on MUD somewhere but if anyone knows feel free to make my search easier
Travis.
That's the part about stuff like this that drives us nuts - one lousy connection can screw up the whole system . It wouldn't surprise me if that ground is up near the guage cluster somewhere...
Sarge
Sarge
- Thread starter
- #78
Cheers Sarge,
Well ive had enough for now. My back is killing me and im cramping up in my legs after all the work over the last 48hours bent over and under the old girl. (By back is stuffed, have pinched nerves and a couple fused discs)...
I studied these wiring diagrams / looms till i was blue in the face. The are pretty simple to follow and i can visualise exactly how mine is / should be given the differences between your Left Hand drive versions and my Right Hand drive.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/430560-fj40-wire-harness-reference-september-1976-a.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/475291-fj40-wire-harness-reference-december-1978-a.html
BUT i cannot for the bloody life of me find even ONE ground lug from the wiring loom.
It is easy to follow the loom ie. from the headlights and work back, but there just does not seem to be any ground terminal, lug where there should be one.
On the passanger side (left) the WB from the headlight plug might very well run up the guard then join the WB that runs down to the alternator instead of the #5 lug shown on the 76 loom.
I cannot see any Ground connection anywhere near the fuse block which both the 76 and 78 looms clearly show!
These old girls are so clean and basic, how the hell one can hide a ground connection point from me is a joke lol!
...................
For the sake of it, i tried temporarily installing the ground jumper wires on both of the headlight WB terminals and connected them to ground. Left hand side to the chassis, the Right hand side i connect DIRECTLY to the negative battery terminal.
Surly if there was some interference coming down these WB wires effecting the VR / Alt then these would put a stop to it?????
Well it had no effect. I started and ran the engine and the ammeter was up to its usual tricks, back and forth between -10ish Amps and +20ish Amps.
Travis.
Well ive had enough for now. My back is killing me and im cramping up in my legs after all the work over the last 48hours bent over and under the old girl. (By back is stuffed, have pinched nerves and a couple fused discs)...
I studied these wiring diagrams / looms till i was blue in the face. The are pretty simple to follow and i can visualise exactly how mine is / should be given the differences between your Left Hand drive versions and my Right Hand drive.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/430560-fj40-wire-harness-reference-september-1976-a.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/475291-fj40-wire-harness-reference-december-1978-a.html
BUT i cannot for the bloody life of me find even ONE ground lug from the wiring loom.
It is easy to follow the loom ie. from the headlights and work back, but there just does not seem to be any ground terminal, lug where there should be one.
On the passanger side (left) the WB from the headlight plug might very well run up the guard then join the WB that runs down to the alternator instead of the #5 lug shown on the 76 loom.
I cannot see any Ground connection anywhere near the fuse block which both the 76 and 78 looms clearly show!
These old girls are so clean and basic, how the hell one can hide a ground connection point from me is a joke lol!
...................
For the sake of it, i tried temporarily installing the ground jumper wires on both of the headlight WB terminals and connected them to ground. Left hand side to the chassis, the Right hand side i connect DIRECTLY to the negative battery terminal.
Surly if there was some interference coming down these WB wires effecting the VR / Alt then these would put a stop to it?????
Well it had no effect. I started and ran the engine and the ammeter was up to its usual tricks, back and forth between -10ish Amps and +20ish Amps.
Travis.
Hi Travis,
I checked these two links and found that in the first one the main ground is #55 and is next to the fusebox.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/475291-fj40-wire-harness-reference-december-1978-a.html
And that in the next one the main ground is #52 and is also next to the fusebox.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/430560-fj40-wire-harness-reference-september-1976-a.html
Rudi
I checked these two links and found that in the first one the main ground is #55 and is next to the fusebox.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/475291-fj40-wire-harness-reference-december-1978-a.html
And that in the next one the main ground is #52 and is also next to the fusebox.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/430560-fj40-wire-harness-reference-september-1976-a.html
Rudi
- Thread starter
- #80
Ill have to take a video to show you guys, but seriously i cannot find any single or pair of wires that is bolted / screwed down to the body ANYWHERE.
Is it possible that there could be a ground which attaches to a switches terminal and grounds through the switch? I couldnt see any 'switched grounds' in the wiring diagrams and cannot see any white wires running to any switches behind the dash... just a thought as i try and work out if there is no direct ground, then how has it been done! lol.
Travis.
Is it possible that there could be a ground which attaches to a switches terminal and grounds through the switch? I couldnt see any 'switched grounds' in the wiring diagrams and cannot see any white wires running to any switches behind the dash... just a thought as i try and work out if there is no direct ground, then how has it been done! lol.
Travis.