Better recovery points for the 80?

[Beowulf]

... until somebody mentioned recently that theirs failed at the weld.

Eric,

Please post a link.

I recall that someone noticed a cracked weld and posted a pic but not that it had failed. Maybe we are thinking of different posts. The one that I'm thinking of had little knowledge of the history of that recovery point. It could have been damaged in a prior front end accident or any number of things.

I'm with Doug and the others. Look at your factory loops and if they look OK then use them. If not, get a new one from C-Dan. I don't think you're anywhere close to needing to worry about the factory loops as many, many of us have used them for recovery and as long as you follow Doug's advice about the "reasonableness" of any recovery then you'll be fine.

-B-

 

[Rich]

I posted before, some of the welds on my factory loops look marginal. I am not at all inclined to use them for snatching. Emergency towing, yes, towing out of a stuck, ok, snatching...not confident that using them for snatching is reasonably safe.

 

[loquito]

Eric,

Please post a link.


-B-

Disclamer: I have no opinion becouse if I did it would be an uneducated one!


https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=868522&postcount=149

 

[green_machine]

folks, be carefull on what d rings and sntach rings you investigate. Most commercially available rings are "lift rings" or "clevis lift points", and have very low stress ratings, and are rated for straight pulls only. Especially those with swivel bolts, which have become popular as of late. I use 4130 rings, with 36kpsi mounts, and I am nervous about those in "dead" side pulls.

a bolt through clevis mount, with a backing plate of twice the thickness of the host material, with 3x the surface area of the mount is best, but rather hard to fit in most spaces.

 

[e9999]

Disclamer: I have no opinion becouse if I did it would be an uneducated one!


https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=868522&postcount=149

when I look at it, seems like it didn't get crushed heightwise by terrain, and that there is little weld material visible. Seems like the tails of the hoop wire are missing though. As I said above, all that may be needed is to reinforce the welds? Then again, if the loop material itself broke as may have been the case here, that's not good.


edit:
when I looked at my loops, the welds were quite different on each. One of them had smaller welds than the others. Friday pm welder? May be worth checking?

 

[Cruiserdrew]

What is being overlooked here, is that when recovery is needed, cool heads rarely prevail. What are you going to do, leave your stuck rig because you are afraid of the recovery points? Normally what happens, is the best available, reachable point is used. Noone is calculating weld strength or worrying about what *might* happen. I have seen plenty of 80s recovered from the stock tow points, and plenty more pulled from the ARB jack point. It doesn't look that stout, but have you ever seen one fail?

I'm all for overbuilt, and will likely get the bolt on with backing plate at some point, but I think Eric (as usual) is way overanalyzing the problem, and even creating one where none exists.

True snatch recoveries are rare. I mean the type where you hook up, get some speed and "snatch" the stuck vehicle. I've done 2, both quite scary, and both pulling on an 80 series stock tow point. The attachment on my truck was the Slee rear bumper's recovery point. I'm thinking that inpsecting the tow point from time to time is wise, and replacing it is a good idea if it gets bent. Otherwise they will be fine for 99.9% of recoveries. I'm thinking the one that failed did so because it was previously damaged. If this was a common failure, there would be more examples either in the USA or Australia.

 

[Beowulf]

(Reposted from a post on the wrong thread... sorry)

For really big pulls I use a longer bridle to the OEM hoops as well that's slack unless something goes wrong when it will stop anything flying off very far.

Eric,

I think this is the best suggestion for anyone planning to use the factory loops for what is expected to be a hard pull and perhaps for any pull based on the one that we've seen that broke during a recovery.

A bridle made from a tree protector would be simple to rig at the same time the strap is being attached. You would use 1 D-shackle that is attached to the other recovery loop and the loop on the end of the tree protector would have the primary recovery strap passed through it. It might be better to use a shackle on each end of the tree protector. If the recovery loop were to break the bridle would keep the pieces retained.

-B-

 

[Nay]

I'll respectfully disagree with your apparent premise that the ARB is mostly for cosmetic purposes since I imagine it was designed as a Roo bar and apparently does that job well; I am also not enthusiastic about the tone of your posts above; but I'll have to agree that them not having put a serious recovery point on it is mind-boggling....

Don't take it seriously, I'm just kidding - I'd never have thought about this if I was buying an ARB. Anybody considering an ARB bumper should be aware that the bumper needs modifying to reach the full potential (in other words, buy Slee or custom build).

To the bottom line: add recovery points to your ARB, remove the stock loops, and gain some additional clearance.

Nay

 

[e9999]

(Reposted from a post on the wrong thread... sorry)





Eric,

I think this is the best suggestion for anyone planning to use the factory loops for what is expected to be a hard pull and perhaps for any pull based on the one that we've seen that broke during a recovery.

A bridle made from a tree protector would be simple to rig at the same time the strap is being attached. You would use 1 D-shackle that is attached to the other recovery loop and the loop on the end of the tree protector would have the primary recovery strap passed through it. It might be better to use a shackle on each end of the tree protector. If the recovery loop were to break the bridle would keep the pieces retained.

-B-

yup, done that in similar situations

 

[MoJ]

It wasn't an implication

Hey, I'm not a fan of lots of relatively thin cosmetic metal designed for "coverage". I'd rather have plastic to scratch, bend, and spring back into shape. As for testimonials that the ARB somehow saves you life in an accident, that is nothing but emotional belief, unless ARB is crash testing a regular 80 besides an ARB bumper equipped 80 to measure forces on a crash dummy. I'm guessing not. I get how it "feels" good to have that thing bolted on...but there are lots of things that "feel" good and don't have the intended results. This is why I wake up every morning with four little kids in the house.

I cannot, absolutely cannot, believe that ARB is getting away with selling these badass bumpers without an f'ing front recovery point. That is a JOKE.

This thread kills me. You buy some monster bumper that is going to save the world, and then you can't even strap from it. It's only slightly more funny than it is sad.

Nay

Nay-
What do you have on yours?

 

[NorCalDoug]

Nay-
What do you have on yours?

From what I can gather from his last post, Nay's got squat on his rig and claims he was "just kidding"

 

[reffug]

From what I can gather from his last post, Nay's got squat on his rig and claims he was "just kidding"

Kinda like somebody else........


(and no I don't mean you Doug)

 

[NorCalDoug]

Kinda like somebody else........


(and no I don't mean you Doug)

yeah. I think I know who you mean.

 

[clownmidget]

I have seen plenty of 80s recovered from the stock tow points, and plenty more pulled from the ARB jack point. It doesn't look that stout, but have you ever seen one fail?

Not an 80, but the ARB on my second gen 4Runner looked pretty much identical with the same tabs/washers up front and I was able to have both fold completely over flush with the bumper on a particularly nasty side pull with 5/16" steel winch cable. Was it a properly thought through recovery? Hell no! But I still do not like the idea of using those points for anything other than a place to secure your winch line hook.

 

[Romer]

yeah. I think I know who you mean.

me too! . . .I think some folks just like to have a high post count!

 

[SUMOTOY]

I'm thinking Doug is right. I have a loop from a boat with a 15k single line pull rating that is smaller than what's on my 80.

If you have doubts on your loops, replace them. After every recovery if it makes you feel better. Want to be really anal? Paint them with black paint and if they get scratched or bent replace them. The stock tow points have no stress on them until they are towed or bent.

I enjoy being on a forum going after overkill, here I think the factory did a pretty good job attaching the overkill to the frame of the truck.

Save you money and buy better sling rigs, and learn 'how' to tow. I read the snap tow with a chain, never. My rule for 25years of towing, if it needs a 'snap' that wouldn't be me doing it. There appear to be plenty of overeager and inexperienced good samaritans for that.

One guy's pic of a broken stock loop doesn't change my opinion of them, it's just not enough information.

Scott Justusson
94 FZJ80

 

[Romer]

It just strikes me as funny that people are buying these things because they've heard that it can take on a kangaroo.

How about a Honda?

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=50707

 

[reffug]

How about a Honda?

Touche sir......

Dat sure was alot to type just to turn around and delete it.

Worried about the kangaroo / marsupial comment.

How about a 800 lb. steer, dats a little different than a deer.

 

[Nay]

I'll agree with you if your statement is basically that the ARB front bumper is not the best bumper for rock crawling. I've bashed the hell out of mine and have done a pretty good job deforming it.

That said, it wasn't designed to be a rock crawling bumper. It was designed for use in the Australian outback -- for expedition type trips/trails. The fact that the hoops can withstand highspeed impact with larger wildlife has been proven. This is what it was designed to do -- IMO, it does a great job doing what it was designed to do.


Now...WTF do so many of us have this bumper? Well...protection from possible animal strikes is a pretty good reason. I think it's a good compromise for various off-road use and for general protection.

If you want hard-core rock-crawling bumpers for the 80 series? Get Slee's or have one custom made. No one's stopping anyone from doing so.



Just to satisfy my curiosity -- what super-awesome-invincible-hard-core-rock-crawling bumper do you have on your 80?

Stock of course! What better platform to figure out where you need clearance and extra strength without spending a penny? Sucks spending a grand to figure that out. This is the aforementioned "has squat" approach, as opposed to the "spent $5K on mistakes" approach .

I'm not going to comment on the whole wildlife protection thing. Just 'cause you sold that to your wife (does her minivan carrying your kids have a bull bar???) doesn't mean it works here

I'm mocking up a tube bumper - in my experience, this is the best weight to strength solution (if you can properly triangulate in the space available) without going straight to those ugly ass pieces of stock that only cover the distance between the frame rails with a receiver in the middle.

Maybe I'll do it this summer if I can kill the stock piece sufficiently. But the 80 has problems - you really need to trim the frame back a bit to maximize clearance (again the non-winch perspective), and that's a bit irreversible. At least you can take an ARB back off if you can bear having to wrestle with that beast again.

Unless there is no good alternative, I personally won't run anything in the bumper category that a) adds a lot of weight, b) is relatively easily damaged, c) does not improve clearance, or d) all of the above. This is the perspective born of thousands and thousands of dollars of mistakes on a previous rig running fast as I could to keep up with the Joneses, who, it turns out, are getting ready to file for bankruptcy and then probably divorce .

The stock bumper only violates "B", and it is free to me to maul it. The ARB violates "D" at the cool price of a grand or more shipped. I don't run a winch, which admittedly makes these standards much easier to adhere to.

Seems to me that this is worth pointing out, and this thread is a perfect illustration (rock crawlers buying bumpers without front recovery points). The ARB is sold as a rock crawling bumper in the US, and people buy it for that purpose (and scare their wives with tales of 60 mph collisions with elk), and then over time many realize that maybe it wasn't so well suited for their purposes. This is an expensive lesson that people can but won't avoid, which is why I think it is funny. There is always somebody else in line...cash in hand... been there more times than not

Nay

 

[Nay]

How about a Honda?

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=50707

I cannot say that an ARB bumper improves the crumple zone performance on an 80. What may help in a fender bender may kill you in a high speed head on collision. Without crash testing, you have no way of knowing. All you do know is that Toyota did not think 120 lbs of bull bar on the front end of a Land Cruiser was a desired design element, and therefore did not account for that in how the Land Cruiser was designed to handle severe accidents.

This may have simply been for the probable increase in lethality to those being hit, it may be that the extra weight compromises crumple zone performance and increases the likelihood of ramming things that are supposed to be under the hood through your spleen.

I'd feel better about having the steel out front, too, but that's just emotions. The reality is that you make these mods and you are now the crash test dummy. . Bumpers designed for marsupials and bumpers designed for Hondas might not be the same thing.

Nay