Better recovery points for the 80?

[AMMO]

Doug:
I'll skip the editorial comments...
Glad to see you know whether I did a search or not. Must be nice.
I am well aware that some think that these are just for the high lift. Others think that's not the case.
As for me, if I can make a better system very easily at low cost, I'll explore the possibility.

First I really can't blame the guy for wanting to explore something "better", that’s what this board is all about. However like Doug mentioned, you must first understand the kinda situation you will or will not be getting yourself into. What I mean buy that is are you building a rig to do some HC wheeling? Doing the Con this year? What about Fordyce? Maybe Dusty? Oh wait that maybe too far how about closer to home, Shredder out by Palmdale? IF NOT, then I would say you are thinking too hard on this "recovery point idea" because I don't think getting stuck in Miller will exceed the factory recovery points ever.

And for the record a bolted on recovery point with back plate will exceed any welded on job any day of the week. Remember its all about dispersing the energy over an area.

-Ammo

 

[NorCalDoug]

Doug:
I am well aware that some think that these are just for the high lift.

Think?
Have you read the documentation that came with your bumper? Can you show me anywhere in said documentation where ARB indicates that this could possibly be a recovery point?
Think? Dude...where are you getting this from?

Doug:
Others think that's not the case.

Who are these others?

And how is this relevant anyway? That's all there is on the ARB, I answered the question as to whether there was a serious attachment point on it or not.
As for me, if I can make a better system very easily at low cost, I'll explore the possibility.

low cost? Quality and safety don't jibe with low cost in my book. Why not use what's already out in the market? The version sold by expedition exchange along with the backing plate should be sufficient for pretty much anyone's needs -- unless you're into super-extreme-hardcore stuff...which, I don't really see you doing.
Take a look at AMMO's solution. That's one that I'd trust as well.

My point -- if you want to go back and read my post is basically -- don't sweat the details too much. Find what's already available, determine if it's quality and use it. If you don't find anything that suits your needs, THEN start with the wheel inventing. What's the point of reinventing if something works?

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Ammo-Very nice! Any extras?

 

[Nay]

I can't see how you can imply an ARB is purely cosmetic bling and doesn't provide any real protection.

It wasn't an implication

Hey, I'm not a fan of lots of relatively thin cosmetic metal designed for "coverage". I'd rather have plastic to scratch, bend, and spring back into shape. As for testimonials that the ARB somehow saves you life in an accident, that is nothing but emotional belief, unless ARB is crash testing a regular 80 besides an ARB bumper equipped 80 to measure forces on a crash dummy. I'm guessing not. I get how it "feels" good to have that thing bolted on...but there are lots of things that "feel" good and don't have the intended results. This is why I wake up every morning with four little kids in the house.

I cannot, absolutely cannot, believe that ARB is getting away with selling these badass bumpers without an f'ing front recovery point. That is a JOKE.

This thread kills me. You buy some monster bumper that is going to save the world, and then you can't even strap from it. It's only slightly more funny than it is sad.

Nay

 

[e9999]

It wasn't an implication

Hey, I'm not a fan of lots of relatively thin cosmetic metal designed for "coverage". I'd rather have plastic to scratch, bend, and spring back into shape. As for testimonials that the ARB somehow saves you life in an accident, that is nothing but emotional belief, unless ARB is crash testing a regular 80 besides an ARB bumper equipped 80 to measure forces on a crash dummy. I'm guessing not. I get how it "feels" good to have that thing bolted on...but there are lots of things that "feel" good and don't have the intended results. This is why I wake up every morning with four little kids in the house.

I cannot, absolutely cannot, believe that ARB is getting away with selling these badass bumpers without an f'ing front recovery point. That is a JOKE.

This thread kills me. You buy some monster bumper that is going to save the world, and then you can't even strap from it. It's only slightly more funny than it is sad.

Nay

I'll respectfully disagree with your apparent premise that the ARB is mostly for cosmetic purposes since I imagine it was designed as a Roo bar and apparently does that job well; I am also not enthusiastic about the tone of your posts above; but I'll have to agree that them not having put a serious recovery point on it is mind-boggling....

 

[e9999]

Ammo, the bracket looks strong, the backing plate surely helps, but I would imgaine that the overall strength depends on the metal it's attached to. Can't say that the metal in the front of the ARB, outside of the sleeves area, appears that thick or strong.

 

[heckler]

And for the record a bolted on recovery point with back plate will exceed any welded on job any day of the week. Remember its all about dispersing the energy over an area.

-Ammo

Just for the record, isnt that mount welded together?

 

[AMMO]

Ammo-Very nice! Any extras?

Ha ha, that depends.... I do have a set sitting in the gagage, could deliver them to a location....any old location would do. How's DV work for ya??? Still a sold out run????

-Cheers

-Matt

 

[AMMO]

Just for the record, isnt that mount welded together?

Good to see we have a member who can spot a weld... Ok I had to edit this so I will try to explain, what dispersion of energy over a mass is all about. In simple terms a bolt on plate w/ a back plate will disperse the energy of the pull far better then a weld on tab, granted the weld holds to the outer plate. Witch is far stronger then a flush weld to a bumper, in this case the ARB. The topic of discussion seems to be the ARB bumper... so in this case this design will exceed a weld on tab to this application due to the thickness of the bumper.

Does that make sense now?


-Ammo

 

[NorCalDoug]

Ammo, the bracket looks strong, the backing plate surely helps, but I would imgaine that the overall strength depends on the metal it's attached to. Can't say that the metal in the front of the ARB, outside of the sleeves area, appears that thick or strong.

Do you really think the metal around the bracket that AMMO has on his bumper would give way (given that he has a backing plate attached) during a recovery?

The assumption being that the metal used on the ARB bumper needs to be strong enough to support a recovery of an 80 series.

 

[NorCalDoug]

...This thread kills me. You buy some monster bumper that is going to save the world, and then you can't even strap from it. It's only slightly more funny than it is sad.

Nay

I'll agree with you if your statement is basically that the ARB front bumper is not the best bumper for rock crawling. I've bashed the hell out of mine and have done a pretty good job deforming it.

That said, it wasn't designed to be a rock crawling bumper. It was designed for use in the Australian outback -- for expedition type trips/trails. The fact that the hoops can withstand highspeed impact with larger wildlife has been proven. This is what it was designed to do -- IMO, it does a great job doing what it was designed to do.


Now...WTF do so many of us have this bumper? Well...protection from possible animal strikes is a pretty good reason. I think it's a good compromise for various off-road use and for general protection.

If you want hard-core rock-crawling bumpers for the 80 series? Get Slee's or have one custom made. No one's stopping anyone from doing so.



Just to satisfy my curiosity -- what super-awesome-invincible-hard-core-rock-crawling bumper do you have on your 80?

 

[e9999]

Do you really think the metal around the bracket that AMMO has on his bumper would give way (given that he has a backing plate attached) during a recovery?

The assumption being that the metal used on the ARB bumper needs to be strong enough to support a recovery of an 80 series.

I don't think it would for sure tear and pull through during a "normal" recovery, but I would not be surprised at all if it bent the ARB metal. Maybe there is enough room to put it "inside" of the sleeve perimeter, though, that would be much better I would think.
I'll admit I'm going by gut feeling here since I am no expert at recovery so the above is worth what you paid for it...

 

[NorCalDoug]

I don't think it would for sure tear and pull through during a "normal" recovery, but I would not be surprised at all if it bent the ARB metal. Maybe there is enough room to put it "inside" of the sleeve perimeter, though, that would be much better I would think.
I'll admit I'm going by gut feeling here since I am no expert at recovery so the above is worth what you paid for it...

Would a larger backing plate add a bit to your comfort level? It would spread the stress over a larger area so there would be less likelihood of bending the metal.

 

[IdahoDoug]

I personally believe that the factory recovery points are plenty strong. Can you damage them in nonrecovery activities such as bashing them on rocks? Yes. Are there situations where they are inadequate? Yes, but these situations are well beyond typical trail wheeling and deeply into a serious stuck wherein due consideration to multiple attachment points would be part of the well considered recovery. In other words, too many people believe a truck can be recovered from an all night stuck in deep mud by a single attachment point. I disagree and feel that serious stucks require multiple attachment points and an attendant increase in skill and equipment that moves into the level of a professional due to the extremely dangerous levels of force required.

DougM

 

[e9999]

I personally believe that the factory recovery points are plenty strong. Can you damage them in nonrecovery activities such as bashing them on rocks? Yes. Are there situations where they are inadequate? Yes, but these situations are well beyond typical trail wheeling and deeply into a serious stuck wherein due consideration to multiple attachment points would be part of the well considered recovery. In other words, too many people believe a truck can be recovered from an all night stuck in deep mud by a single attachment point. I disagree and feel that serious stucks require multiple attachment points and an attendant increase in skill and equipment that moves into the level of a professional due to the extremely dangerous levels of force required.

DougM

I was feeling plenty warm and fuzzy about them too, until somebody mentioned recently that theirs failed at the weld. (I have to go back and read about the circumstances.) Went and looked at mine and the welds look OK but I may still add some more welds to them if I don't do the "slab" I was describing above. One good thing about the ARB bridging the rails is that it would probably would make it much safer to use both OEM loops at the same time.

 

[FirstToy]

e,
sometimes I wish your keyboard had a headgasket...

 

[Dusty]

that bolt on Ammo piece is nice-should sell those. I would trust a set up like that with its long weld to a little welded on tab most days. However nothing builds confidence in a recovery point like a thick piece of steel that is bolted (not welded) directly to the frame--ie everything that Slee builds. How do you know some High school kid or a drunk welder wasn't doing the welding the day your arb was made? you think of these things as you yank out the guy behind you with a 2 pound d-ring hanging from his bumper and aimed at the back of your head.

 

[Romer]

Eric, I am with Doug on this one. I don't understand the concern. I also don't see why you are concerned or what you would propose to do about it.

I am sure you wouldn't be starting threads like this simply to increase your post count.

 

[AMMO]

e,
sometimes I wish your keyboard had a headgasket...

James,

One word (Classic)

-Ammo

 

[IdahoDoug]

I think Dusty's comment about the 2lb D ring speaks to my concerns. The factory recovery points are stout. They'll handle hanging the 80 by a single one from a crane. The crane could let it freefall a foot and it still wouldn't let go. They're that strong.

By way of comparison, my big tow strap (you know, the one you keep in your kit that you won't get out for any stuck - you use the other one for that) is rated to 27,000lbs. That's 4 and a half 80s hanging. Frames are rated at the amount of force required to flex them an inch IIRC (this is from my product planning days, so forgive my inexactness). The last model of Isuzu Trooper had a frame rated at around 65,000lbs of force. Now these are figures I just want to throw out so you know the kind of forces it takes to bend frames - I don't know what the 80s corresponding figure is.

But I do know that it would be proper engineering procedure to design an attachment point on a frame intended to be used for recovery in such a way that it's strength is matched to the frame. To design it to pull off easily would be a huge liability issue. In other words, having the hook pull off before deforming the frame would be unacceptable. It should remain attached to the frame while deforming it - this is not an application where an engineer would design it to fail as a "fuse" to prevent frame damage. No way. That Toyota chose to make it a closed loop that is much stronger than an open hook should also say something. The hook is more user friendly, but they passed on that design to get strength.

I don't know the circumstances of the one single failure that has been reported and when I read the thread I did not get any information at all. Was it a side pull? Had the loop been damaged by previous recoveries? Had it been damaged by repeated rock contact (I've seen these mashed sideways)? Had it been removed and replaced perhaps not at the correct torque which allowed the base to roll and crack the weld? Dunno. If someone had definitive knowledge of this stuff it would be good to know. Not someone who was just there and saw it fail, but the actual truck owner who could say "I bought the truck new and nobody had ever removed that hook and it had been scraped as usual from wheeling but not seriously distorted." THAT would bother me, frankly.

So, just a stream of consciousness ramble to give you some numbers and thoughts on how strong these things are. All bets are off if someone's removed them to put on a trailer hitch or a front bumper and replaced the factory fasteners with longer ones to fit over something, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is that I would not be worried about the factory attachments if they're unmolested. If I personally buried my 80 to the headlights in mud and the next day hired a D9 to pull it out I'd rig a bridle to use both front hooks and try to get the pull as straight ahead as possible. The bridle would not have a short piece from each hook that creates a side load, it would be as long as practical so both are getting a straight pull. I'd also ask the operator not to slam the recovery chain. Just normal respect of the dangers. And I personally would not be worried about pulling off the hooks.

If it had to be a side pull, I'd be very concerned and be looking for a way to share the load elsewhere because now you're pulling tires sideways rather than forward and loads might double easily. Now I'd move to pulling tires and attaching straps to the frame through the wheel opening, etc. At this level and direction, ANY attaching point would be suspect. I don't care who's front bumper is on there and how well it's attached. I'd go directly to the frame with webbing and padding.

So keep things in perspective. If this type of stuck is part of your scenario then the factory points are not adequate, but you still have options that involve direct attachment to the vehicle's hard points (frame).

Whatever you do, keep the 2lb D-ring on your mind. Every single year experienced wheelers get killed in this fashion. Sadly, it's usually the experienced wheeler being a good samaritan getting killed because the attachment failed on the stuck rig, not his own well prepared vehicle. Don't be that guy....

Best to simply drive an 80 and don't get stuck

DougM